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PostPosted: Jun Thu 25, 2009 3:38 am 
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Posts: 774
Location: Jackson, TN
Wow, this is an amazing group of sets that most of us wouldn't stumble across in a lifetime.

Michael, On that Buckwalter... Why the two scales on the oscillator knob? Seems like the scale selected would determine the actual IF frequency? Do you suppose one scale used a harmonic for the if signal?

Tim


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PostPosted: Jun Thu 25, 2009 4:29 am 
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Location: Murphy, Tx
Rick,

Thanks much for clarifying which set I have and also for the ad! It's very interesting seeing the exact radio I have in an ad from 1924.

I have not done anything to this radio yet, but hope to get it going in the future.

Question: What was the procedure for tuning in a station on these early superhet sets? I ask because they have both a tuner knob and a local oscillator knob.

John K.


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PostPosted: Jun Thu 25, 2009 5:20 am 
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Location: Carmel, Indiana
Tkilboy wrote:
Wow, this is an amazing group of sets that most of us wouldn't stumble across in a lifetime.

Michael, On that Buckwalter... Why the two scales on the oscillator knob? Seems like the scale selected would determine the actual IF frequency? Do you suppose one scale used a harmonic for the if signal?

Tim


Tim, that's the $64,000 question that I've been wrestling with ever since I got this radio. My guess is that secondary scale is the result of the oscillator range being compressed but for what purpose and how it was accomplished remains a mystery. Possibly if the osc. coil is wired up differently, it will produce this smaller range. Right now, the way the osc. is hooked up, it tracks perfectly with the larger tuning range. I'm sure the answer lies within the pages of an original Supertone owners manual but that's something of which I have yet to own.

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Michael Feldt
www.indianaradios.com


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PostPosted: Jun Thu 25, 2009 4:48 pm 
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Posts: 2584
Location: Redding, CA
If the IF frequency is 125-kc, the inner scale is the image. Knowing the source station of the image allows the user to tune the station directly but does not help with reception of the station behind the image. Many years ago, I owned one of these receivers, very possibly the one Michael has today. Behind the brass dial scales were screen printed dial scales!

Norman


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Thu 25, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Townsend, Ma.
Ron:
Did you find it too difficult to photograph the Model L data?
We were hoping to see the coil winding data at the very least.
Merrill :?


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PostPosted: Jun Thu 25, 2009 9:56 pm 
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Posts: 143
Cause ya'all like to see pix of Hets and as footnote to the Buckwalter, here's a shot of the second version. Note the bright orange tube sockets by C & H. Rick

Image

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Never saw a 1920s Superhet I could live without!

See lots of 1920s Superhets at http://www.superhets.info/page5.html


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PostPosted: Jun Fri 26, 2009 12:10 am 
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Braithwaite wrote:
Many years ago, I owned one of these receivers, very possibly the one Michael has today.


That could be. I got this set from Stewart Oliver of Venice, California a couple of years ago.

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Michael Feldt
www.indianaradios.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Fri 26, 2009 3:32 am 
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Posts: 4989
.
I've been more busy at work than usual so haven't had a chance to keep up here - - - - BUT:

I'm tickled to pieces Ron posted a pic of his Leutz model "L." That has to be close to the top of the Holy Grail list for a lot of us. That he has the history, and that it's one of the prototypes for the following kits - - - well that just makes it ever so much the sweeter.

Sadly, I've never been able to snag any of the EIS or Leutz sets - - only this homebrew in an early EIS 40" cabinet.

Image

The set was someone's construction project, unfinished and now waiting me to figure out what best to do with the old dear. The chassis in the set currently is a Silver Marshall based homebrew, using Screen Grid tubes and individual stage shielding. The IFs are the 65 Kc S.M. units in the little Bakelite Housings.

There must have been quite a trend toward producing long box radios in the EIS mold - - - they do show up every once in a while and some were fairly well done. I remember this Gentleman posted pictures of his early e-x-p-a-n-d-e-d Victoreen in Antique Radio Classified: September 1988.

Image

I have no idea what the fellow was referring to by his reference to "Oscillation for Super Gain," I can only speculate he was referring to some version of Super-regeneration - - but how or if that worked, I haven't a clue..

I'm glad Michael posted pics of his Buckwalter or Burad "Supertone." I had thought of digging mine out and doing a photo shoot, but Michael's is a lot nicer than mine.

Rick's additional information about the "Burad" brand indicates mine is a second version - - something I did not previously know. One of the curious things about the Burad sets is how many of them are missing the transverse wood piece above the front panel. It's missing on mine and several folks through the years have commented that its missing on their example as well.

I'm blown away by John's Lecault "L-1." I have a L-2 someplace, but then - - - who doesn't?

The L-2 was apparently a pretty good selling kit, or at a least good selling set of plans - - but then most surviving examples seem to be in the factory suggested cabinetry, so one would think Phenix sold a fair amount of the kits. They may not have sold as well as Victoreen Superhets, but there seem to be quite a few survivors.

While on the subject of LeCault - - one of the Forum's members is restoring the only example of the "L-3" Ultradyne that I've ever known of. It'd be great if he could check in here and let us know how it's coming along and maybe post a picture or two. I have some pics from the original EeevilBay sale, but I'm curious about the restoration progress of this ultra-rare Superhet.

Keep em coming folks - - I'm working on a post for my Lavoy Novodyne.
.


Last edited by Dale Davenport on Jun Fri 26, 2009 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Fri 26, 2009 4:56 am 
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Joined: May Thu 07, 2009 10:57 pm
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Quote:
Indiana Radios on the Buckwalter: ... that's the $64,000 question that I've been wrestling with ever since I got this radio. My guess is that secondary scale is the result of the oscillator range being compressed but for what purpose and how it was accomplished remains a mystery.

I'll stick my neck out to answer Michael's question of why two scales on the Buckwalter Supertone oscillator dial.

The Intermediate Frequency for the Buckwalter was fixed at 40 KC as taken from Radio Listener's Guide, September 1926.

(In those days, harmonics were hard to control except in Harry Houck's brain! So, no harmonics used here.)

If you look at the ads Michael posted, you'll see one that shows a Buckwalter cabinet receiver. It indicated there were TWO loops that were used with it. One very small loop was mounted on the cabinet door for "distances up to 500 miles". The other, a much larger loop not shown, was used for "distances from 12000 miles or less". WOW! Some very subtle boasting.

These two loops had to have very different electrical characteristics such as Inductance, etc.

Consider this. The LC constants of the antenna input circuit, which would also be part of the ocillator circuit, would have to change every time the two different loops were switched in and out. I contend the oscillator tuning condenser would react differently to the electrical characteristics of each loop. Thus, the necessity for two different scales on the oscillator dial.

Michael noted the receiver worked very well using the larger, outside scale on the dial. But, what if he used just a few turns of wire with a diameter of the loop being only about six inches as shown hanging on the cabinet speaker door in the picture?? What scale would be appropriate then??

Rick

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Never saw a 1920s Superhet I could live without!

See lots of 1920s Superhets at http://www.superhets.info/page5.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Fri 26, 2009 5:19 am 
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Posts: 143
The Ultradyne Model L-3, shown below from Popular Radio, October 1925, was not a Superhet, but was in fact a TRF. Not typical of Robert Lacault who designed many technically innovative Superhet receivers.

What is very unique about the L-3 is that it had no apparent tuning dials or volume control. But, look at the outside of the built-in speaker. There were small slider levers that moved around the speaker opening to tune the set and provide volume control.

It was factory-built and used six 201As.

BTW, the only "knob" on the set was under the right-hand corner of the speaker. It cut in and out the second of two audio amp stages for "Soft", "Loud", and (set) "Off".

They didn't sell well (too radical) and are as rare as hen's teeth!!

Rick

Image

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Never saw a 1920s Superhet I could live without!

See lots of 1920s Superhets at http://www.superhets.info/page5.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Fri 26, 2009 7:40 am 
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Posts: 5057
Location: Radio Heaven, North Carolina, near Charlotte, 28106-3015
While we're all thinking about 20s Supers, I'd
like to take this opportunity to post
this photo of a knob I'm searching for to complete a Leutz C-7 Special
restoration.
Image
Here's a link to my web page with more details
about this unobtainium knob,
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/GRknob.html

PLEASE, if you find this knob in a junk box,
let me know. You could make me a VERY
happy collector.

I really appreciate the kind words from Dale
and others about my Leutz-L, I am very
proud of it, it truly is the star of Radio Heaven.
When I first finished it's restoration and took
out for the first time to the contest at AWA
Rochester in 1998 I was lucky enough to
win the Peoples Choice Best of Show and the
AWA Houck Super-Het award along with first
place in category. I also had to chance to sell
it for an insane about of money.
After talking to a number of other Leutz owners
there we figured that there were maybe 5 or 6
of these known. I had to decide
what was more important, having a super rare
set in my collection, or a hand full of
money. I chose to keep the set.
I know my wife would have rather had to
money...

And Merrill I will see if I can photograph the
coil data off the original Leutz blue prints
for you. I don't know how well it'll work,
but I'll try.

Again I want to say how much I'm enjoying
the thread.

I never met a battery super-het I didn't like!

_________________
73, Ron w4ron
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/menu.html
Photo tour;
goo.gl/c4UzGS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Fri 26, 2009 12:47 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 4989
.
Quote:
The Ultradyne Model L-3, shown below from Popular Radio, October 1925, was not a Superhet, but was in fact a TRF. Not typical of Robert Lacault who designed many technically innovative Superhet receivers.


My Bad.

Rick is, of course, absolutely correct. The "L-3" was/is a TRF.

There is a lesson here folks - - do not trust your memory when you get old, and particularly when its way past your bedtime.

But I'd still like to know how the restoration on the L-3 is coming along.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Fri 26, 2009 4:13 pm 
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Joined: May Thu 07, 2009 10:57 pm
Posts: 143
Quote:
Dale...There is a lesson here folks - - do not trust your memory when you get old, and particularly when its way past your bedtime.

Dale,

I've already proven your statement several times on this forum, :oops: but I couldn't used the reason about bedtime!!

"Wrong" Rick

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Never saw a 1920s Superhet I could live without!

See lots of 1920s Superhets at http://www.superhets.info/page5.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Fri 26, 2009 11:56 pm 
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Posts: 143
Don’t want to monopolize this threat, but it looks like it’s dyin’!

So, I’ll throw another “different” Superhet out here to look at and think over…

Of course, RCA’s judgment against the complete manufacture of Hets while allowing “kits” to be sold to amateurs changed the history of the radio.

One way to clearly circumvent patent infringements was to factory-build a module that would be the basis of the circuit and then additional components could be easily wired onto it by anyone, amateur or not.

Several well-known companies provided these units, like RCA’s catacombs, Raven’s (discussed earlier), Remler’s Infradyne RF amp, Silver Marshall’s 401 unit, and later, the SM 112 KC “Jeweler’s Time Signal” amp, We, then, come to the “wooden module” from Denver. Yes, the wooden module. Sealed from prying eyes!

First, though, we need mention the Nine-In-Line, the Ten-In-Line, and, now, the Eight-In-Line, the BouldeRadio!

Introduced in September 1927, by the “GraderGood Co.” (National Sales Reps), they were located near downtown Denver. The company boasted only nine (9) binding posts to connect to complete the radio as shown in the ad from an “American Radio Co” catalogue for September 1927.

It used air core IFs and filter in the wooden module at 85 KC. The company guaranteed that if the “innards” went sour, they'd replace it [seemingly forever] if the unit hadn't taken apart or abused.

A similar looking, but shortened wooden box, the "Six-In-Line", was offered about the same time where you could add your own audio amplifier system (Dolby?).

Enjoy! :shock:

Rick

Image

Image

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Never saw a 1920s Superhet I could live without!

See lots of 1920s Superhets at http://www.superhets.info/page5.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Sat 27, 2009 1:07 am 
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Joined: May Wed 03, 2006 4:47 am
Posts: 5057
Location: Radio Heaven, North Carolina, near Charlotte, 28106-3015
Rick A wrote:
Don’t want to monopolize this threat, but it looks like it’s dyin’!


Thanks for keeping the thread alive Rick,
I wish I had something new to add.

_________________
73, Ron w4ron
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/menu.html
Photo tour;
goo.gl/c4UzGS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Sat 27, 2009 1:41 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 760
Location: Utah 84005
Rick A wrote:
Quote:
Indiana Radios on the Buckwalter: ... that's the $64,000 question that I've been wrestling with ever since I got this radio. My guess is that secondary scale is the result of the oscillator range being compressed but for what purpose and how it was accomplished remains a mystery.

I'll stick my neck out to answer Michael's question of why two scales on the Buckwalter Supertone oscillator dial.

The Intermediate Frequency for the Buckwalter was fixed at 40 KC as taken from Radio Listener's Guide, September 1926.

(In those days, harmonics were hard to control except in Harry Houck's brain! So, no harmonics used here.)

If you look at the ads Michael posted, you'll see one that shows a Buckwalter cabinet receiver. It indicated there were TWO loops that were used with it. One very small loop was mounted on the cabinet door for "distances up to 500 miles". The other, a much larger loop not shown, was used for "distances from 12000 miles or less". WOW! Some very subtle boasting.

These two loops had to have very different electrical characteristics such as Inductance, etc.

Consider this. The LC constants of the antenna input circuit, which would also be part of the ocillator circuit, would have to change every time the two different loops were switched in and out. I contend the oscillator tuning condenser would react differently to the electrical characteristics of each loop. Thus, the necessity for two different scales on the oscillator dial.

Michael noted the receiver worked very well using the larger, outside scale on the dial. But, what if he used just a few turns of wire with a diameter of the loop being only about six inches as shown hanging on the cabinet speaker door in the picture?? What scale would be appropriate then??

Rick



Be careful about sticking your neck out. :lol: :lol:

If the loops were changed, and the inductance changed, then it would greatly effect the scale on the loop control. But notice: there is only one scale on the loop control.

I’ve measured the Supertone IF transformers, and they are resonant at about 140 kc (not 40 kc). At any setting of the loop control, or RF tuned frequency, there will be two points on the oscillator dial where an IF of 140 kc will be produced; one frequency is 140 kc above the RF, and one frequency is 140 kc below the RF. You guys all knew this. Those two frequencies are what the two scales on the oscillator dial are for (except calibrated to the tuned RF wavelength instead of the osc. wavelength). If you look at the difference between the wavelengths of the two scales at any position of the oscillator dial, you will find that there is a difference of about 280 kc (twice the IF frequency, 140 kc above the tuned signal, and 140 kc below the tuned signal). For example, at a bottom scale wavelength setting of 400 (mid range on the scale)the top scale shows about 288. This corresponds to a frequency of 750 kc and 1042 kc, respectively. The difference between those two frequencies is 292 kc.

Duane

P.S. One of the IF transformers on my Supertone has an open winding so it is not in working condition at this time. Perhaps Michael could verify what I have said above by testing his Supertone to see if it recieves the same station at the two different settings of the osc. dial.


Last edited by Duane B on Jun Sat 27, 2009 5:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Sat 27, 2009 4:56 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 4989
.
Quote:
Thanks for keeping the thread alive Rick,
I wish I had something new to add.


C'mon Ron, We know you have a number of nice early Superhets - - how about doing a photo shoot and some background on maybe the AR-812? I know we think of them as commonplace perhaps, but a lot of the Forum's members and visitors may have never had the chance to see one, or know how significant they really are in the history of the industry.

I wish I had a knob for your Leutz - - - Do I remember correctly that there was something special - - - or different about those knobs. I want to think I remember they were modified in some way before being used - - but then too, I've reached the age I don' buy under-ripe bananas - - so memory may be one of those things rapidly fleeing.

Duane:

Your explanation of the dual scaling makes sense to me. Once I followed the reasoning it became clear.

I need to dig out my Supertone and see if the dial scales have the printed ones under them, seems I remember checking once before and it does - - but I need to re-investigate, just for my own satisfaction.


Rick:

Thanks for posting the picture and information on the "Eight-In-Line" set. I did not know there was a surviving example. That gives me some little hope my copy of that set is still out there somewhere, just waiting for me to locate it.

I've wanted a copy of the Eight-In-Line for a long time - - I even considered building a replica, including the wooden Catacomb.

I can add one bit to the information about the Eight-In-Line sets; the schematic:

Image

BTW: The dotted box indicates the parts and circuits located in the wooden Catacomb assembly.

ADD: If anyone wants a larger scan or a black on white version, just PM me with your E-Mail addy.


That set must be very nearly as rare (scarce?) as a "Hot Spot 14" - - - another elusive Colorado radio.

What say you Folks - - I know a number of the Forum's members have some pretty neat early Superhets that we haven't seen yet. Do I have to call ya'all out by name to see pictures?


.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Sat 27, 2009 5:39 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 572
Location: AUSTRALIA
Just had a thought. Maybe these photos should be archived in the photo gallery. If some of these pics are linked to sites such as "Photobucket" then they are "odds on" to vanish from the thread over time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Sat 27, 2009 5:55 am 
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Joined: May Wed 03, 2006 4:47 am
Posts: 5057
Location: Radio Heaven, North Carolina, near Charlotte, 28106-3015
golfguru wrote:
Just had a thought. Maybe these photos should be archived in the photo gallery. If some of these pics are linked to sites such as "Photobucket" then they are "odds on" to vanish from the thread over time.



All ten of the battery super-hets in my collection
are shown on this web page,
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/superhets.html
they aren't going anywhere.

_________________
73, Ron w4ron
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/menu.html
Photo tour;
goo.gl/c4UzGS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jun Sat 27, 2009 6:14 am 
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Joined: May Wed 03, 2006 4:47 am
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Location: Radio Heaven, North Carolina, near Charlotte, 28106-3015
Dale Davenport wrote:
I wish I had a knob for your Leutz - - - Do I remember correctly that there was something special - - - or different about those knobs. I want to think I remember they were modified in some way before being used - -


Yes they are different in that they are
a combination of a General Radio main knob
and a special spun metal skirt that was installed
by E.I.S., the Experimenters Information Service
the company the produced the Leutz kits.
Here's my "wanted" web page again with
details about the knob.
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/GRknob.html
I know they were available for the model L
and model C Leutz supers and they were
on the type K antenna adapter, which since
they weren't radios were apparently sold assembled by E.I.S.

_________________
73, Ron w4ron
http://radioheaven.homestead.com/menu.html
Photo tour;
goo.gl/c4UzGS


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