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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Wed 02, 2018 12:15 am 
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Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
Whoa. Looks like i'm gonna have to eat my words. The low-res image at the link you provided, from an actual
ad, seems to show the extra knob, but I sure don't see it in the schematic. So that one on Epay might have been
a rare variant. So, were there 3 variants: the "basic" BN-1; the BN-1 with 'antenna loading' control, and the
( never actually seen ) BA-80-40 ? This has been a learning experience for me. I had never picked up on the
presence of that extra knob in the Weskit ads. ( I have 2 BN-1's, neither has the extra knob. )
I would really be interested in if there's any other wiring change that can't be seen in the photos, and a better
explanation of why this extra control.
-Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Wed 02, 2018 12:21 am 
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Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
I'm thinking it would be interesting to examine the coil from both the basic BN-1 and the extra knob model.
Was the antenna coupling link moved closer to the tuned winding? So you could use the knob-cap to back off the
antenna loading, to preserve the plate tuning "dip" when tuning for transmit ? Just guessing !


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Fri 04, 2018 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Oct Sun 20, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 12
@Hue Miller

Hi,
you wrote that you own a BN-1 kit not assembled, it would be nice to see some images of it.
Is it not accompanied by an assembly manual and/or instructions?
In the case it would be nice to see those too.

About the BN-1 sold on eBay, yes, actually the additional knob is shown only in FIG.6 on the document I have linked, sadly nothing is in the schematic diagram.
Anyway I think that what has been sold is a genuine, hence that there really existed a version with that specific feature, otherwise it couldn't be justify what was portrayed in FIG.6.

In my opinion would be also nice to see the single tube CW transceiver explained on QST magazine article that you wrote.
I'm really interested in it, so please provide its schematic if you can.
Thanks!

Best regards

Realistic


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Fri 04, 2018 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
Other pressing priorities hold me from doing anything with the unbuilt BN-1 at present. I will eventually work to scan in the front panel and also for the unbuilt Weskit receiver I have. I bought these from the estate sale of the Weskit
owner.
I will look again for the QST article. I kind of wonder if that was the spark of the idea for the BN-1. -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Fri 04, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
"Tom Thumb" from QST, Sept. 1945. Here's the schematic. I don't know if you can see the article without subscribing to QST. I can forward the 2 page article, 340 kB; message me.


Attachments:
Tom Thumb QST single tube transceiver.JPG
Tom Thumb QST single tube transceiver.JPG [ 31.92 KiB | Viewed 1008 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Fri 04, 2018 8:50 pm 
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Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
Looks like you could improve the circuit somewhat. I don't see any way to mute the receiver. You could improve the switching so the transmitter cannot be keyed while listening. Also I think you could use a neon bulb oscillator to create a tone sidetone so you can hear your sending. A basis for thought, anyway. You could also use a #19 or 1J6 tube for battery filament but a little more power than the BN-1's 3A5. -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Fri 04, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
I should think more before I post. I see how the switching is arranged by the cathode switch. The idea for the sidetone
generator is still valid. -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Fri 04, 2018 10:24 pm 
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Joined: Oct Sun 20, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 12
@Hue Miller

Hi,
thank you very much!
There is no need for the article because it can be found here:

https://www.retro.co.za/zs1ke/projects/ ... r_1945.pdf

About the BN-1 if I had one I would not change it, I would use it as it is.

About the unbuilt BN-1 you have, ok, I will wait for your front panel scan.
One thing I didn't understand, though, is if in the kit you own there is any instructions or other?
I know that Wesco provided a handbook to help pass the test to obtain the novice license.
It would be nice to be able to find it too.

Many, many thanks!

Best regards

Realistic


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Fri 04, 2018 11:46 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
I have a photocopy of the manual for the Weskit SW receiver but I do not know if I have for the BN-1. I will look.
I never heard about any Weskit booklet to help pass the test and I tend to be skeptical that such was actually produced, but i'm willing to be educated. I have some other Weskit paper, like a couple sheets on their little crystal
radios and a catalog. The catalog does not have radio products. I'm wondering where I would have filed the BN-1 information. Maybe I don't actually have anything, because I am thinking now I would have remembered parts of the text ? ( One of my longterm goals is to become a "squared away person", but it's difficult. ) -H


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sat 05, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Oct Sun 20, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 12
@Hue Miller

Hi,
thank you for your efforts in getting things clear on BN-1!
I don't know what differences, electrically speaking, there are among "basic" BN-1, the BN-1 with 'antenna loading' control, and the BA-80-40, for sure the one sold on eBay has a different color for the front plate, although labels on it are the same as well the well known "basic" version.
One weird thing is that the schematic diagram doesn't report the additional variable capacitor, or whatever else it could actually be, commanded from the knob on the front panel and more there isn't any label which explain exactly what is its function, what it does.
Actually though, since the early advertisements the BN-1 is shown with that "extra" knob, so already starting from the beginning it has that feature, or we must suppose it was an update and that there had been a previous version (the one referring to the schematic diagram that is on the net) without it.
It must be observed that the advertisements of the BN1 shown on different magazines are real photographs rather than drawings as shown in FIG. 6 on the electrical wire diagram of the device.
Moreover, by reading of the old advertising insertions it emerges that, among the various documentation, Wesco provided "Full information given on quick easy to get license."
It should also be considered that the BN-1 couldn't legally be used by people without a license and that at that time for the Novice class, in addition to the restriction of use rigs limited to crystal control of the transmitting frequency (restriction that was lifted in 1972), the license wasn't renewable untill year 1978 when the Novice changed into a renewable license with the same five-year validity as other classes, so that in order to continue legally it was necessary to support new exams for the Technician class license.
Please take a look at these:

https://books.google.com/books?id=cuEDA ... et&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=DeEDA ... et&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=xiUDA ... et&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=KN8DA ... ey&f=false

I hope that soon one day you will want to share all the information on the BN-1 that you own.

Many, many thanks in advance!

Best regards

Realistic


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sat 05, 2018 10:03 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
Clearly there's more to the BN-1 story than meets the eye ! Up until your post showing the 'enhanced version',
I had NEVER seen any discussion of this point. I suggest this was Weskit's earliest model, and that he decided the
control was of minimal value, plus Weskit shaved a little more profit by omitting it. The color you mention is also an
interesting point. I saved all those Ebay photos to my archive from the sale listing link you gave, thanks. I looked last night for anything paper on the BN-1. It was a lot of fun looking thru my archive on "minimalist radios" but did not find anything. Trying to remember now, but when I bought the BN-1, I think the estate seller would have included at least a photocopy. I also very vaguely recall reading a discussion of the various plate voltages you could use with the BN-1 and i'm wondering if I recall that from reading the instruction sheets. The search will go on.
I wonder if you and I are the only antiqueradios forum readers interested in this thing ? I do know we're not the only ones interested overall.
BTW, you're aware of that "Oner" ( as in "one-r" or "1-er" kit that was offered a couple years back, a modern recreation of a BN-1 style radio, same single tube 3A5 ? I recall I was mildly tempted, but I felt the guy's selling practice, with some crazy unreasonable shipping charge, was a blatant boost to his price, and I wasn't going to be a patsy for that. -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sat 05, 2018 10:10 pm 
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Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
If you want to take a look at that modern recreation of the concept, google " Glowbug kit 1-DER ".
The seller's site says he is out of the business of kits. -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sat 05, 2018 10:15 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
Now back to the QST "Tom Thumb" circuit. You do not want to use a tube with a single cathode. I don't want to look for my tube manual to see if the schematic is just drawn wrong. With a single cathode of course, both sections of the tube conduct no matter which side your switch is set to. -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sat 05, 2018 11:01 pm 
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Joined: Oct Sun 20, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 12
@Hue Miller

Hi,
thank you for having looking in your archive!
I hope that in the end you will find some documentation for the BN-1 that you will share here.
I'm pretty sure we aren't alone, other users devoted to BN-1 surely are here in the forum.
Maybe the 'enhanced version' is an earliest model and next it Weskit decided that the control was of minimal value so shaved a little more profit by omitting it.
But it's also possible that actually the 'enhanced version' was an update marketed later but produced and distributed in a few pieces compared to the previous version without the additional variable capacitor.
Who knows.
Generally the BN-1s that you see on the net have the front panel of a different color compared to that sold on eBay that I linked.
Though, in the early advertisements the color is the same as the 'basic' version, despite it is shown the 'enhanced' version with the additional knob and also, on the schematic diagram there is shown the 'enanced' version and it is written "WESTERN RADIO - KEARNEY, NEBRASKA 1956".
I know the "1-Der 40" and other similar rigs, but honestly, Weskit BN-1 is a different world, despite thinking well put at least 90V on the head through the headset is not at all safe!
Thank a lot!

Best regards

Realistic


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sat 05, 2018 11:22 pm 
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Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
Some additional thought: I just looked at the 1956 schematic. With the rod antenna mounted on top, and the tapped
coil, the antenna control on the front panel would be very useful. This very short antenna has to be carefully resonated to work, and merely providing a tapped coil "about" right is not going to work. In this case what you can do is make the coil a bit longer than necessary and then use a variable capacitor in series to compensate. This "could" be the use
of the internal antenna capacitor in what i'm going to call, "the early model". I'd like to see what anyone else thinks of this. I suppose as rather few people were actually going to do this, I mean add an antenna to the top of the set, "maybe" it was thought that this part was extraneous. The radio came with a "plastic impregnated cardboard" case, "Plastoid" they called it. To use the rod antenna you would have to buy the optional metal case, and then - I don't think i'd want to mount an antenna on top it - the case is open-back and I tend to think an accidental strike to the
antenna would bend the case.
Also the light bulb in series with the antenna just wastes power. I don't recall if I read this in BN-1 instructions or elsewhere, but after you tune for max, you should replace the bulb with a screw in dummy, just a lamp base with a wire short. Nowadays you could instead use an LED in series with the 3A5 transmitter plate to watch plate current and tune it that way.
So far, my theory is that the "enhanced model" was the early idea and abandoned later. -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sat 05, 2018 11:43 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
Did you notice that in the ad photo the rod antenna is shown to the left side rear of the cabinet? I think this looks more "professional" or military, but also it looks like the antenna may be supported somehow at rear chassis of radio rather than mounted to the actual cabinet top surface, which as i pointed out, is not likely to work out well supporting any antenna.
Also i noticed in the internet photos it looks to me like the wrong size buib is screwed in. Looks to me like a higher filament voltage than you would use with this low power output. Just a tiny point, but sometimes i pick up these things. -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sat 05, 2018 11:52 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
If the loading capacitor was the later version, wouldn't this be the BN-1-A that someone was wanting the schematic to?
And I don't think the 1-A guy mentioned any loading capacitor. I am very much puzzling right now where I saw the
" BA-80-40 " model. That one didn't have the loading control either.
Also I noticed their 2-tube receiver later model had some extra and I think, junky graphics added to the front panel.
Westkit archeology ! -Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sun 06, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Joined: Oct Sun 20, 2013 9:12 pm
Posts: 12
@Terry Thompson K7MPP

Hi,
would be useful if Terry Thompson K7MPP, who posted here in the forum and here:


https://www.kb6nu.com/the-wesco-bn-1/#comment-455045

too, could provide further information about his BN-1, such as pics for instance.
It would also be nice to clarify on the basis of what information he wrote that 'The “A” model was said to have had “improved circuitry."'.


@Hue Miller

Hi,
your considerations may be valid, but actually that's not the point.
The primary thing is retrieve as much information as possible about the BN-1, subsequently the different versions can be placed over time.
Indeed it makes no sense to establish the chronology of possible variants of something that not even one knows in what they consist.

About the rod antenna, beyond the more or less military aspect in relation to where it is set, in FIG. 6. on the document I linked it is supposedly shown that way in order to make clear how it is made and how it's need to connect it, since the wing nuts for the antenna terminals are on the front panel.
The aforementioned document is probably an integral part of the BN-1's endowment, that is, it was supplied together with the transceiver, while the images of the advertisements in the magazines would have the purpose to show how the product could be connected to a rod antenna directly attached to the appliance.
Here:

http://www.af4k.com/Ham/WeskitBN1.htm

it's written that
'The sides, top, and bottom of the box are made of a plastic impregnated cardboard, while the back of the unit remains open.'

The rod antenna, as shown in the advertisements, how would it be supposed to be connected?
Was a rear connector provided?
Even if it means little, the wiring diagram doesn't mention anything about it.
It would be interesting to have the assembly instructions supplied with the kit, I don't think everything was reduced to the document I linked.

About the matter of the light bulb in the tuning circuit, you are right.
Indeed, as it's possible to read here:

http://www.af4k.com/Ham/WeskitBN1.htm

'The transmitter is a modified Pierce crystal controlled oscillator on the 80 or 40 meter amateur bands. The L-C tuned plate tank circuit is link coupled to the antenna, and a type 1843 incandescent lamp in the antenna circuit is used as a tuning indicator. After tuning, the lamp is to be replaced with a type 41 lamp to reduce resistive losses.'


Still here:

http://www.af4k.com/Ham/WeskitBN1.htm

'An optional stage of audio amplification using a type 3V4 tube can be added for operation of a small speaker. A pre-punched hole in the chassis can be utilized for the purpose of mounting the additional tube.'
Was this described in the provided assembly instructions or where else was it possible to find the information?

And still there:

http://www.af4k.com/Ham/WeskitBN1.htm

'The front panel as shown above, is made of thin sheet metal, with a rather attractive gray paint job with red screen printed markings.'

Therefore we must assume that the front panel was gray, while most of the BN-1 documented on the net and in the old magazines have the front panel in white color.
Too the BN-1 shown here:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=319465

has the white front panel, even the knobs are white, although with extra long sized pointers enough to interfere with the commands in the surroundings.
Is this a further variant from the year 1957?
It's said to be genuine, although it seems strange to me that Weskit have chosen that weird type of knobs.
Functionally speaking it's really a weird choice use that ones instead of the usual darks and common sized knobs.
It really makes no sense to use that kind of knobs there.

Best regards

Realistic


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sun 06, 2018 9:54 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
I have not seen a live BN-1 front panel. Both mine are grey. I think we are safe to assume that BN-1A followed
BN-1, and that the ( never seen, nonexistent ) BA-80-40 followed both. I don't recall where I saw the image of the latter; back when I did, no one had this level of interest in the product. So the only question is where the 'loading-
control' version fits in. I am suggesting this was Weskit's first idea. The latest model, BA-80-40, did not have the control. The rod antenna as shown in the drawing and the ad photo is maybe an attractive idea for the market
audience, but with the open back construction, I think it's a very poor idea to actually use in the field, the strength
of even the metal cabinet will not securely support an antenna of maybe over one foot long. Lever action, if you smack anything with the antenna, is going to be hard on the cabinet. Mounting the antenna to the rear of the set,
as suggested by the ad photo, is fanciful, as the chassis is recessed into the cabinet, thus no simple way to place
an antenna mounting fixture there.
The one shown with the long knobs - that's someone's sick idea of an improvement, maybe to try to make the tuning
less critical. That image leaps out right away as wrong. ( There was ONE Meissner regen kit that used a long narrow knob like this, but that's the only set I have seen that uses such. )
I don't recall seeing any advertisement or listing for the 3V4 audio tube optional kit.
As for information on getting one's license, I suspect that was a few lines in the instructions or maybe just an additional page. Weskit's instruction sheets were not really in a booklet format. I base this on the BR-1 and crystal
radio instructions I have.
I will PM the fellow with the BN-1A. We need a photo of that radio.
-Hue


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 Post subject: Re: WesKit Radio
PostPosted: May Sun 06, 2018 10:04 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Sun 14, 2010 2:51 am
Posts: 279
Location: Newport, Oregon, 97365 U.S.A.
I left a question for Terry K7MPP on the KB6NU website.
If no ans, i'll use QRZ.com to access an address and go that route.
-Hue


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