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 Post subject: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Just wondering if anyone has ever played around with these things and used them to power your homebrew rigs or maybe use them to power 6-volt filaments or something. I know it can be done and have watched the videos on YouTube on doing this, but something seems a bit fishy to me when I think about doing this kind of thing.

Basically, I'm worried about picking up a lot of RF hash from the switching supply. That, and a lot of these "supplies" are really cheap and use really cheap components, so I'm a bit worried powering stuff with them. Is it really worth the effort, and if so, what's the best way to bypass the RF hash? Any other caveats to worry about?

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Randy AB5NI

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 3:46 pm 
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IMHO: I have not used them for that purpose and probably never will.

I CAN say that there are industrial DIN rail power supplies that ARE hash free. I have used them for all sorts of bench applications rather than tie up the adjustable, metered precision supply. Hung 300mhz, scopes on these DIN supplies and found them as noise free as a dead battery :shock:

Every computer supply I have dealt with generates an RF racket, some more than others. There probably are noise free supplies but there not going to be in common as dirt computers nor sold on ebay for $5.00 either.

Better off using an old analog supply from the early TTL days and tweaking its regulator for what you need. These were once as plentiful as door stops at Ham feasts... FWIR they were 5v, 12v, 15v, 24v.

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Chas


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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 4:19 pm 
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Howdy Chas,

That's what I was worried about as well. In the muscle car world, we used to say, "There is no replacement for displacement." Translated to power supplies, I guess you could say, "There is no replacement for a good, well-regulated, analog supply that has some actual iron."

For the record, I do have one of those old 10 Amp Radio Shack supplies that has served me well for many years. I also have an old analog 30-amp supply, but it needs a new pass transistor to get going again. I was hoping that I could get by on the cheap and power a rig or three with a generic computer supply, but from what you're saying here, I'm thinking that I just better stear clear of the beasts.

73,

Randy AB5NI

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 4:50 pm 
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Randy,

Yep, good ole iron, BUT backed up by honking big caps. There is the caveat. I used to service custom made industrial process machinery, populated with in house made electronics, powered by these supplies often screwed to the back steel plate of a huge cabinet. Some of these supplied DC to Darlinton solenoid valves, when the caps began to fail, actually loose capacity as the metalizing began to breakup there was not enough instantaneous "nads" to take the inrush of a firing solenoid. Hanging a storage scope with a one minute trace was a visual as the trace plodded along there were dips in the voltage. The dips were an issue, if the voltage sagged a valve may fail to open in time and the machines function could be impaired, sometimes a dramatic crash of product being where it should not be or a machine arm not retracted and getting wiped out by a conveyor link, Oops...

If one powers a tube transmitter for Ham CW, a soggy power supply can cause whoops or frequency shifts in transmitter frequency.

Same for an audio amp, the bass notes take a lot of "nads", the audio will sound compressed and fail to have that "brilliance" when the bass booms the bassoon goes flat...

BTW never load the first cap with all the mfd's in the P.S., raises havoc with the switching of the rectifier of any type or the regulator.

Don't know if it is still true, I used find these supplies in machine salvage yards, cheap .25 cents/pound. Try haunting Ham and technical college flea markets...

Pass transistor? A bunch of parallel 2N3055's?

Chas


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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 4:56 pm 
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I agree with Chas that an analog supply is the best solution.
They generate no noise.

And I put my money where my mouth is.
No switching supplies in the office or the lab (other than computers).

One problem with computer switchers...
These normally require a minimum current drain on one output, usually 5 volts.
If you don't draw this minimum current, the supply may not regulate properly.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 5:12 pm 
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Leigh has reminded me something you may encounter on these old analog supplies is a sense circuit, two additional terminals marked (+) and (-), the sense circuit is FWIK part of a "crowbar" circuit that clamps the output of the power supply if it is overloaded. To use it properly involves running another pair of leads to the load. I have not had a great deal of experience with the sense circuits, they have always been jumped out at the power supply. FWIR sometimes the sense clamps destructively and the regulator circuit goes permanently open.The fuse opened and the sense resistors burned...

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/po ... --remedies

GL

Chas


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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 5:58 pm 
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Quote:
the sense circuit is FWIK part of a "crowbar" circuit that clamps the output of the power supply if it is overloaded.


The SENSE circuit if there to compensate for the voltage drop in connecting cables. A high current supply, pumping out 10 amps or more, may have an unacceptable voltage drop at the end of the cables connecting to the load. To compensate for this, sensing wires are connected AT THE LOAD to read the actual voltage and cause the voltage regulator to step up the output voltage.

If you sense at the power supply terminals, you may get 5.0V, but at the load it could be closer to 4V, so you need to adjust the regulator accordingly.

Not all supplies have crowbars. Many analog supplies have "fold-back" regulation. If the load pulls too much current, the output voltage decreases dramatically. A crowbar decreases the output voltage to zero and usually (intentionally) blows a fuse.

Image

Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 6:41 pm 
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Chas wrote:
Randy,
Yep, good ole iron, BUT backed up by honking big caps.


Man, you can say that again, Chas. Only problem I seem to have with this is that they want an arm and a leg for "computer grade" caps that can handle that kind of load. Very unfortunately, I went bankrupt a few years back, and I recently had my 3rd heart attack, so my working days are pretty much over, and I really can't afford to to purchase such things and build a good, decent supply. That's the main reason I was asking about these "power supplies." I figured that in my current state of being "financially challenged :D," they might be a good way to do things economically. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Quote:
There is the caveat. I used to service custom made industrial process machinery, populated with in house made electronics, powered by these supplies often screwed to the back steel plate of a huge cabinet. Some of these supplied DC to Darlinton solenoid valves, when the caps began to fail, actually loose capacity as the metalizing began to breakup there was not enough instantaneous "nads" to take the inrush of a firing solenoid. Hanging a storage scope with a one minute trace was a visual as the trace plodded along there were dips in the voltage. The dips were an issue, if the voltage sagged a valve may fail to open in time and the machines function could be impaired, sometimes a dramatic crash of product being where it should not be or a machine arm not retracted and getting wiped out by a conveyor link, Oops...


Wow. Man, I wouldn't want to be around when that equipment went south! Personally, I did a lot of SCADA work in the oilfield, mainly writing mud-logging software, and I finished up my career doing logistics tracking of oil field equipment. Anywho, everything on oil rigs are big and dangerous, and if something goes wrong with equipment, everyone is going to know about it in short order. Check it: 3000-6000 PSI on the vast majority of valves used on oil rigs, especially around what's called "the rig floor," where the drill string is being spun around by freight-train motors. Needless to say, should one of those valves get stuck or malfunction, the crap is going to hit the fan very, very quickly. There are also a lot of PLC's adjusting various valves in production platforms, and if something messes up there, you might just have a major oil spill or a platform on fire. Needless to say, all SCADA code has to be rock solid, and everyone involved has to have insurance out the butt, or you don't work.

Quote:
If one powers a tube transmitter for Ham CW, a soggy power supply can cause whoops or frequency shifts in transmitter frequency.


I built the QRP transmitter out of the 1968 Radio Amateur Handbook -- pill bottles and all :D -- and the main flaw the rig had was the power supply. That damn thing whooped and yooped so badly, all of my on-air buddies knew it was me instantly :D. Wound up having to just connect it to a 12-volt supply and running really low power, but I sure had a lot of fun doing that!

Quote:
Same for an audio amp, the bass notes take a lot of "nads", the audio will sound compressed and fail to have that "brilliance" when the bass booms the bassoon goes flat...


What I usually do is use the "30% fudge factor" when designing a supply. In other words, whatever is actually required to get things done, add 30% to everything. This allows for some decent headroom and keeps the supply running quite cool. I still add a computer fan or two, just to be on the safe side.

Quote:
BTW never load the first cap with all the mfd's in the P.S., raises havoc with the switching of the rectifier of any type or the regulator.


Quote:
Don't know if it is still true, I used find these supplies in machine salvage yards, cheap .25 cents/pound. Try haunting Ham and technical college flea markets...


Fortunately, I suffer from an acute case of Packratitis and have studied Packratology for many, many years, especially when it comes to power transformers. I'm pretty sure I have that base covered :D.

Since you guys have said "pass" on the switching supplies, I'm now thinking about just rewinding some microwave-oven transformers for 6 volts, putting a few in series and parallel, and just getting my 6 and 12 volts from them. I guess I could add an Arduino with I2C an an LCD display, multiple sensors to monitor ambient temperature, current, and voltage, too. Easy way to shut things down, should something look out of whack. Would be a fun project, but I can't afford it, at the moment, so I guess I can just shift it over to the back burner, for now. Basically, what I'm trying to do is build a variable supply that can power numerous devices on the test bench. I've looked for something decently priced on eBay, but I'm WAY to picky when it comes to electronics, so I basically say to hell with it and build my own piece of equipment or rigs.

Quote:
Pass transistor? A bunch of parallel 2N3055's?


You got it. One of em let loose a few months ago. I'm pretty sure I have a few in the junkbox. Just need to dig them up and fix the thing.

73,

Randy AB5NI

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Hi again, Leigh. Great to hear from you again, buddy.

Leigh wrote:
I agree with Chas that an analog supply is the best solution.
They generate no noise.


Yeah. I was watching "Mr. Carlson's Lab" on switching supplies on YouTube, and he went over the basic design principles. Never realized it was an oscillation circuit driving all the switching until I saw that video. BTW, if you guys know of any kids that want to learn electronics, he also has a patreon account, and they'll learn a lot of crap from that guy for a few bucks a month. Paul is an excellent engineer and great teacher.

Quote:
And I put my money where my mouth is.
No switching supplies in the office or the lab (other than computers).


To quote Eric Cartman: "SCREW switching supplies!" :D

Quote:
One problem with computer switchers...
These normally require a minimum current drain on one output, usually 5 volts.
If you don't draw this minimum current, the supply may not regulate properly.


I've seen some interesting solutions to this problem. Some just tack on a resistor to supply a constant load, and others run down to the auto-supply house and use a small tail lamp for the load. Either way, this seemed like a major kludge to me.

73,

Randy AB5NI

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 7:10 pm 
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Quote:
Quote:
Pass transistor? A bunch of parallel 2N3055's?


You got it. One of em let loose a few months ago. I'm pretty sure I have a few in the junkbox. Just need to dig them up and fix the thing.


2N3772 = much better pass transistor. Higher gain (easier on your regulator IC) and bigger chip (should be more reliable).


http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/ ... 000897.pdf

Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 7:12 pm 
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Chas wrote:
Leigh has reminded me something you may encounter on these old analog supplies is a sense circuit, two additional terminals marked (+) and (-), the sense circuit is FWIK part of a "crowbar" circuit that clamps the output of the power supply if it is overloaded. To use it properly involves running another pair of leads to the load. I have not had a great deal of experience with the sense circuits, they have always been jumped out at the power supply. FWIR sometimes the sense clamps destructively and the regulator circuit goes permanently open.The fuse opened and the sense resistors burned...

http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/po ... --remedies


I remember reading about them when I was building my external IRF510 amplifier for my QRP rigs. Here's the one I built: http://www.g0kla.com/scpa/SimpleCheapPA.php. Said he kept blowing the finals until he added the sense circuit. So far, my IRF510's are chugging along quite nicely.

73,

Randy AB5NI

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Rich, W3HWJ wrote:
Quote:
the sense circuit is FWIK part of a "crowbar" circuit that clamps the output of the power supply if it is overloaded.


The SENSE circuit if there to compensate for the voltage drop in connecting cables. A high current supply, pumping out 10 amps or more, may have an unacceptable voltage drop at the end of the cables connecting to the load. To compensate for this, sensing wires are connected AT THE LOAD to read the actual voltage and cause the voltage regulator to step up the output voltage.

If you sense at the power supply terminals, you may get 5.0V, but at the load it could be closer to 4V, so you need to adjust the regulator accordingly.

Not all supplies have crowbars. Many analog supplies have "fold-back" regulation. If the load pulls too much current, the output voltage decreases dramatically. A crowbar decreases the output voltage to zero and usually (intentionally) blows a fuse.

Image


Thanks for posting this, Rich. Never had it explained that way to me before. Sounds like the crowbar is more of a compromise and way to reduce costs.

73,

Randy AB5NI

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 7:22 pm 
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Rich, W3HWJ wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Pass transistor? A bunch of parallel 2N3055's?


You got it. One of em let loose a few months ago. I'm pretty sure I have a few in the junkbox. Just need to dig them up and fix the thing.


2N3772 = much better pass transistor. Higher gain (easier on your regulator IC) and bigger chip (should be more reliable).


http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/ ... 000897.pdf

Rich


You are just a plethora of info today, Rich. Thanks! Will give it a look for sure.

73,

Randy AB5NI

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Sun 25, 2017 10:07 pm 
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ab5ni wrote:
Hi again, Leigh. Great to hear from you again, buddy.
Thank you, Randy. Glad to be back.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Mon 26, 2017 12:51 am 
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Quote:
You are just a plethora of info today, Rich. Thanks! Will give it a look for sure.


I try to supply "info" but maybe sometimes it's just "input?" :roll:

20+ years in the power semiconductor biz forces one to remember a few good part numbers.

Rich

PS: To protect a delicate output transistor, a crowbar may be a good idea. It cuts off power completely and forces you to look for a problem and fix it. The foldback circuit will keep on pumping current, although at lower levels.

Image

At a preset voltage level (determined by Zener ZD1), Q1 is triggered ON, causing a substantial short circuit across the DC supply. This blows fuse F1.


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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Mon 26, 2017 1:02 am 
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hello Leigh,
its hard to get away from that how about phone chargers almost everything has a switching powersupply
power transformers are costly and big there is the reason .


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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Mon 26, 2017 1:13 am 
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Thanks a ton for the input and info then, Rich :D. I'll be sure to add it to my supply.

BTW, I was wondering if I could just use an Arduino to to monitor the the voltage on the load, and if it ever gets past a certain threshold, open a relay to disconnect the thing instead of blowing the fuse immediately? I guess you could always leave the fuse in circuit as a backup. I guess you could always add bluetooth and wifi to this arrangement to let you know that something bad just happened on one of your supplies as well. (Shrug.)

73,

Randy AB5NI

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Mon 26, 2017 1:49 am 
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Quote:
open a relay to disconnect the thing instead of blowing the fuse immediately?


They didn't have Arduino when crowbars were invented!

How fast is "immediately" ? You can destroy a transistor in less than a millisecond in some cases. Most often it takes a few seconds, but the advantage of crowbar is the speed.

Image

A typical cartridge fuse, like 3AG fast blo, will clear in under a second, depending on the surge current. The fuse "I squared t" has to be lower than the SCR "I squared t." If not, you will blow the SCR before you blow the fuse.

Rich

PS: In the old steel mills and factories (I have been told) where 440V copper buss bars were exposed, electricians used to drop a steel crowbar across the buss bars to shut down a motor with a run-away (loss of field excitation). In a shower of sparks, the short across the buss rails caused the fuses to blow.


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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Mon 26, 2017 1:55 am 
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Quote:
Sounds like the crowbar is more of a compromise and way to reduce costs.

Not true. A crowbar circuit is a safety device. If the output voltage of a power supply exceeds a certain value, it short circuits the output to prevent damage to the load. This is especially important in linear power supplies where the most common failure is a short in one of the pass transistors. This causes the output voltage to go sky high. In switching power supplies the most common failure is the switching transistor going bad. This causes the output voltage to go to zero. There are other failures that could cause excessive output voltage (like a sense lead getting disconnected) but they are much less common. A relay is unsuitable for this purpose because it is too slow; the load will be damaged before it opens.

I don't see computer power supplies as being too useful for a variety of reasons: noise, minimum load requirement, the useful output voltages are usually the low current ones, and the need for additional circuits to turn them on (applying power only turns on the standby supply which allows the computer to "wake up" when something happens, the main supply needs to be turned on by this).

On my job I used industrial grade switching power supplies to run low level analog circuits with no problems. The key words are "industrial grade".

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 Post subject: Re: Computer Power Supplies and Powering Homebrew Stuff
PostPosted: Jun Mon 26, 2017 2:32 am 
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Howdy, Rich. Glad to know you're still out there geeking with us, dude. :D

Quote:
They didn't have Arduino when crowbars were invented!


Well, they should have! :D.

Quote:
How fast is "immediately" ? You can destroy a transistor in less than a millisecond in some cases. Most often it takes a few seconds, but the advantage of crowbar is the speed.


Well, the Arduino is going to have some form of finite resolution, and it's probably going to be somewhere around 250 milliseconds or less (guessing), but I'd have to look into it to be certain. OTOH, I'm sure that there is another micro-controller that would be well suited to such a task that can react into the microsecond range. The problem with that is going to be how cost-effective the MCU is, of course. BTW, I wasn't talking about removing the sense circuit and fuse. The idea here is this: if the load is trying to draw excessive current, open a relay on the load and the power supply primary, before the fuse. Via battery backup, then try to fire off a message to an e-mail address or phone to let folks know that something is not quite kosher with the equipment. Should the crap hit the fan faster than the resolution of the MCU, or if the MCU is out of commission, then the sense circuit just works and fuse blows. Not sure if this would work or be worth the additional expenditure, but it seems like it would, most of the time.

Quote:
A typical cartridge fuse, like 3AG fast blo, will clear in under a second, depending on the surge current. The fuse "I squared t" has to be lower than the SCR "I squared t." If not, you will blow the SCR before you blow the fuse.


Cool. One would think that there is an MCU out there that could react in time to accomplish the task. Actually, I'd be extremely surprised if some company doesn't already offer such a setup. Probably one of those $50K line conditioners and UPS combos they use on those expensive IBM mainframes and blade servers :D.

Quote:
PS: In the old steel mills and factories (I have been told) where 440V copper buss bars were exposed, electricians used to drop a steel crowbar across the buss bars to shut down a motor with a run-away (loss of field excitation). In a shower of sparks, the short across the buss rails caused the fuses to blow.


Love the historical reference. I guess the sense circuit stood on the shoulders of the giants that came before it, Rich :D.

73,

Randy AB5NI

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