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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Mon 26, 2018 4:46 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Guys
Isn't this circuit a voltage doubler?
Attachment:
13v supply.png
It would be if the cap were large so it could sustain the current but the small size limits current.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Mon 26, 2018 5:16 am 
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john8750 wrote:
I wonder if the slight distortion I hear, in some songs, has anything to do with the NFB. Only around the midrange. The amp has no interference on any of the three inputs. I bypassed the tone section but still have the midrange distortion. ....
Not unless the circuit is defective or malfunctioning.

Peter's characterization of negative feedback indicates he doesn't understand how it works. It doesn't 'iron out the wrinkles' (how would it know what a 'wrinkle" is?). Negative feedback takes a sample of the output and compares it to the input and any 'difference' from the input is reduced (how much depends on the amount of feedback). The input can be perfectly clean or 'distorted' in any way you like, the output will (more) faithfully follow it.

Put a pure tone in and you'll get a pure tone out. Put distorted guitar notes in and you'll get distorted guitar notes out. Boost the bass in and you'll get boosted bass out. Whatever you put in is what you get out. That's why it's called "High Fidelity."


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Mon 26, 2018 7:23 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
john8750 wrote:
I wonder if the slight distortion I hear, in some songs, has anything to do with the NFB. Only around the midrange. The amp has no interference on any of the three inputs. I bypassed the tone section but still have the midrange distortion. ....
Not unless the circuit is defective or malfunctioning.

Peter's characterization of negative feedback indicates he doesn't understand how it works. It doesn't 'iron out the wrinkles' (how would it know what a 'wrinkle" is?). Negative feedback takes a sample of the output and compares it to the input and any 'difference' from the input is reduced (how much depends on the amount of feedback). The input can be perfectly clean or 'distorted' in any way you like, the output will (more) faithfully follow it.

Put a pure tone in and you'll get a pure tone out. Put distorted guitar notes in and you'll get distorted guitar notes out. Boost the bass in and you'll get boosted bass out. Whatever you put in is what you get out. That's why it's called "High Fidelity."



Thanks Flip. Just wondering why the sound is slightly distorted only in a small band of frequency, and the rest is fine. I will need the scope to isolate the area with the problem. Should start with a new set of op275's, I guess. The rest of the circuit is used in my 6V6 and has no such problem.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Mon 26, 2018 7:25 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Guys
Isn't this circuit a voltage doubler?
Attachment:
13v supply.png
It would be if the cap were large so it could sustain the current but the small size limits current.



IC- I was comparing it to the B+ supply circuit.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Mon 26, 2018 7:45 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Not unless the circuit is defective or malfunctioning.

Peter's characterization of negative feedback indicates he doesn't understand how it works. It doesn't 'iron out the wrinkles' (how would it know what a 'wrinkle" is?). Negative feedback takes a sample of the output and compares it to the input and any 'difference' from the input is reduced (how much depends on the amount of feedback). The input can be perfectly clean or 'distorted' in any way you like, the output will (more) faithfully follow it.

Put a pure tone in and you'll get a pure tone out. Put distorted guitar notes in and you'll get distorted guitar notes out. Boost the bass in and you'll get boosted bass out. Whatever you put in is what you get out. That's why it's called "High Fidelity."



Thanks Flip. Just wondering why the sound is slightly distorted only in a small band of frequency, and the rest is fine. I will need the scope to isolate the area with the problem. Should start with a new set of op275's, I guess. The rest of the circuit is used in my 6V6 and has no such problem.
That tells me there's something different between where it works fine and where it doesn't appear to.

Assuming it actually is 'frequency dependent', as you say, that suggests it's something 'frequency dependent', like the tone control is.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Mon 26, 2018 8:03 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Not unless the circuit is defective or malfunctioning.

Peter's characterization of negative feedback indicates he doesn't understand how it works. It doesn't 'iron out the wrinkles' (how would it know what a 'wrinkle" is?). Negative feedback takes a sample of the output and compares it to the input and any 'difference' from the input is reduced (how much depends on the amount of feedback). The input can be perfectly clean or 'distorted' in any way you like, the output will (more) faithfully follow it.

Put a pure tone in and you'll get a pure tone out. Put distorted guitar notes in and you'll get distorted guitar notes out. Boost the bass in and you'll get boosted bass out. Whatever you put in is what you get out. That's why it's called "High Fidelity."



Thanks Flip. Just wondering why the sound is slightly distorted only in a small band of frequency, and the rest is fine. I will need the scope to isolate the area with the problem. Should start with a new set of op275's, I guess. The rest of the circuit is used in my 6V6 and has no such problem.
That tells me there's something different between where it works fine and where it doesn't appear to.

Assuming it actually is 'frequency dependent', as you say, that suggests it's something 'frequency dependent', like the tone control is.



An excellent thought, and my first thought. I bypassed the tone board, hooked input straight to the opamp. Could still hear the distortion, in both channels. I will troubleshoot it tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Mon 26, 2018 8:20 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
john8750 wrote:
I wonder if the slight distortion I hear, in some songs, has anything to do with the NFB. Only around the midrange. The amp has no interference on any of the three inputs. I bypassed the tone section but still have the midrange distortion. ....
Not unless the circuit is defective or malfunctioning.

Peter's characterization of negative feedback indicates he doesn't understand how it works. It doesn't 'iron out the wrinkles' (how would it know what a 'wrinkle" is?). Negative feedback takes a sample of the output and compares it to the input and any 'difference' from the input is reduced (how much depends on the amount of feedback). The input can be perfectly clean or 'distorted' in any way you like, the output will (more) faithfully follow it.

Put a pure tone in and you'll get a pure tone out. Put distorted guitar notes in and you'll get distorted guitar notes out. Boost the bass in and you'll get boosted bass out. Whatever you put in is what you get out. That's why it's called "High Fidelity."

Yes Flip:
You are right that's correct.

But when NFB is "on" it effectively attenuates the entire signal.... in some way.
So.. when I put any input in ( pure sine wave) the NFB effectively lowers the resultant signal becasue it feeds back a negative to a positive = less positive.
-2 added to +5 = +3

So when I have NFB on vs NFB off the output is not as loud. (or "bright"/"open")
Because the negative feedback is effectively "reducing" the overall signal. So in addition to the postive aspects of NFB like extending the frequency response and lowering the output impedance, it does seem to effectively lower the overall volume.

So the end result ( for me) ... is that when I have NFB =on... and then I insert the tone ckt in front... the resultant boosts are less noticeable and "murky" not so "bright" .. dull... not very enjoyable.

However ....When I turn the NFB =off... suddenly the same boosted frequencies from the tone ckt seem to suddenly become much more "alive" and extremely enjoyable.

Whatever that is caused by or however it's affected by the NFB... or lack thereof ... it happens... and the tone control changes sound greater when NFB is off..

So maybe it could be said that a tone control ckt used on the front end input of an amp may seem to be more effective-sounding with an amp that doesn't use NFB?

---------------

REF: (https://www.quora.com/How-does-negative ... -impedance)
"Negative feedback: When the feedback energy is out of phase with the input signal, it is called negative feedback.

Negative feedback reduces the gain of the amplifier. That is why, it is sometimes called degenerative or inverse feedback. However, the advantages of negative feedback are-

1.Higher input impedance

2. Lower output impedance

3. Better stabilized gain

4. Reduction of noise

5. Improved frequency response"

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Mon 26, 2018 9:09 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Guys
Isn't this circuit a voltage doubler?
Attachment:
13v supply.png

Yes and no.
Great question.

It looks and sort-of acts like a voltage doubler, yes... but the dropper cap is very small so it cannot support much current.
The AC dropper cap has to pass current in BOTH directions ...so that 1st diode is really only there to provide a current path for the negative half of the AC cycle.
-------------------------
Here's a few dropper cap circuits and a very nice simple description of how each one works:
(ref: http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/) Scroll down to "AC line powered LEDs"
http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/pa ... ineled.gif

"The first (top-left) circuit below illustrates powering a LED (or two) from the 120 volt AC line using a capacitor to drop the voltage and a small resistor to limit the inrush current.
Since the capacitor must pass current in both directions, a small diode is connected in parallel with the LED to provide a path for the negative half cycle and also to limit the reverse voltage across the LED. A second LED with the polarity reversed may be subsituted for the diode, or a tri-color LED could be used which would appear orange with alternating current. The circuit is fairly efficient and draws only about a half watt from the line. The resistor value (1K / half watt) was chosen to limit the worst case inrush current to about 150 mA which will drop to less than 30 mA in a millisecond as the capacitor charges. This appears to be a safe value, I have switched the circuit on and off many times without damage to the LED. The 0.47 uF capacitor has a reactance of 5600 ohms at 60 cycles so the LED current is about 20 mA half wave, or 10 mA average. A larger capacitor will increase the current and a smaller one will reduce it. The capacitor must be a non-polarized type with a voltage rating of 200 volts or more.

The lower circuit is an example of obtaining a low regulated voltage from the AC line. The zener diode serves as a regulator and also provides a path for the negative half cycle current when it conducts in the forward direction. In this example the output voltage is about 5 volts and will provide over 30 milliamps with about 300 millivolts of ripple. Use caution when operating any circuits connected directly to the AC line. "

Image

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Tue 27, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Pbpix wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Guys
Isn't this circuit a voltage doubler?
Attachment:
13v supply.png

Yes and no.
Great question.

It looks and sort-of acts like a voltage doubler, yes... but the dropper cap is very small so it cannot support much current.
The AC dropper cap has to pass current in BOTH directions ...so that 1st diode is really only there to provide a current path for the negative half of the AC cycle.
-------------------------
Here's a few dropper cap circuits and a very nice simple description of how each one works:
(ref: http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/) Scroll down to "AC line powered LEDs"
http://www.bowdenshobbycircuits.info/pa ... ineled.gif

"The first (top-left) circuit below illustrates powering a LED (or two) from the 120 volt AC line using a capacitor to drop the voltage and a small resistor to limit the inrush current.
Since the capacitor must pass current in both directions, a small diode is connected in parallel with the LED to provide a path for the negative half cycle and also to limit the reverse voltage across the LED. A second LED with the polarity reversed may be subsituted for the diode, or a tri-color LED could be used which would appear orange with alternating current. The circuit is fairly efficient and draws only about a half watt from the line. The resistor value (1K / half watt) was chosen to limit the worst case inrush current to about 150 mA which will drop to less than 30 mA in a millisecond as the capacitor charges. This appears to be a safe value, I have switched the circuit on and off many times without damage to the LED. The 0.47 uF capacitor has a reactance of 5600 ohms at 60 cycles so the LED current is about 20 mA half wave, or 10 mA average. A larger capacitor will increase the current and a smaller one will reduce it. The capacitor must be a non-polarized type with a voltage rating of 200 volts or more.

The lower circuit is an example of obtaining a low regulated voltage from the AC line. The zener diode serves as a regulator and also provides a path for the negative half cycle current when it conducts in the forward direction. In this example the output voltage is about 5 volts and will provide over 30 milliamps with about 300 millivolts of ripple. Use caution when operating any circuits connected directly to the AC line. "

Image



Very cool. Has the dropper cap idea been around long, or is it new?

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Tue 27, 2018 6:57 pm 
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Here she is. Working well. I need to paint the PT, and put on some labels.
I found the old style radio knobs at 'all electronics' for 50 cents each, deal.
All inputs are in with shielded cable. The RIAA will be external. It is too sensitive.
I have a slight distortion in the middle range, right behind the voice level. But not
the voice. Tried to swap the op275, isolated the tone section, cant find it.
I connected my 5902 to the same speakers and MP3. The same sound was there.
My shop test speakers :?: Auto 5X7 with a 3/4 tweeter and at least 10 years old.
Must be a problem in the crossover. So, plugged in the headphones, much better.
Attachment:
20180226_125628.jpg
20180226_125628.jpg [ 159.95 KiB | Viewed 308 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Tue 27, 2018 9:36 pm 
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john8750 wrote:

Very cool. Has the dropper cap idea been around long, or is it new?

I don't know really.... perhaps it has. Certainly the concept of capacitor reactance has always existed ...But using the cap as a high voltage dropper has more recently become popular, I guess, in part because NOW these, large value, higher voltage, non-polarized caps have been able to be manufactured.
In the past caps of these values... like 10uf @ 180v were only economically available in the form of DC (polarized) Electrolytic. ... not AC .
AC caps of small values like .01uf @ 600v etc were around since the beginning of radio... but getting up to values like 10uf or so was not there as non-polar AC caps.
Materials like poly and metal film were not made years ago , ... not that I know of.
So now that they are available at low cost, engineers have taken advantage and are able to make smaller less costly devices without transformers.
But also, most devices today use low power chips too so a dropper cap works nicely for that. So it's all just a matter of needs and manufacturing advances all lining up to our advantage.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Tue 27, 2018 11:05 pm 
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That 10uf cap you just placed in the the voltage doubler of the B+ supply is a perfect example of the difference between a voltage doubler and a dropper-cap all in one.
The 220uf cap you replaced allowed plenty of current to supply all the possible needs of the B+
Each current "gulp" it took in was passed over and added to the voltage in the next (1st) filter cap. So with a 220uf cap it was able to take a large "gulp" to feed the next cap for doubling action to occur. But the 10uf cap only can take small "gulps" to feed the next filter cap... so it cannot fully sustain a complete and thorough doubling of voltage and current.
So you drop down a few volts.
You do get something close to doubling but with a restriction of the full current and the voltage drops down accoerdingly.

Because your input AC supply voltage was too high to start with ...we decided to reduce the value of the 220uf way down to 10uf which thereby restricted the current to the extent that it started to act more like a "dropper cap" to lower the voltage.

So that 10uf cap straddles the line between dropper cap and voltage doubler.

It does this by sort-of "crippling" the voltage/current fed to the next filter cap so the doubling effect is just at the limiting point.
So you still have a voltage doubler but it has a restricted current delivery thus lowering the voltage a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Wed 28, 2018 12:13 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
That 10uf cap you just placed in the the voltage doubler of the B+ supply is a perfect example of the difference between a voltage doubler and a dropper-cap all in one.
The 220uf cap you replaced allowed plenty of current to supply all the possible needs of the B+
Each current "gulp" it took in was passed over and added to the voltage in the next (1st) filter cap. So with a 220uf cap it was able to take a large "gulp" to feed the next cap for doubling action to occur. But the 10uf cap only can take small "gulps" to feed the next filter cap... so it cannot fully sustain a complete and thorough doubling of voltage and current.
So you drop down a few volts.
You do get something close to doubling but with a restriction of the full current and the voltage drops down accoerdingly.

Because your input AC supply voltage was too high to start with ...we decided to reduce the value of the 220uf way down to 10uf which thereby restricted the current to the extent that it started to act more like a "dropper cap" to lower the voltage.

So that 10uf cap straddles the line between dropper cap and voltage doubler.

It does this by sort-of "crippling" the voltage/current fed to the next filter cap so the doubling effect is just at the limiting point.
So you still have a voltage doubler but it has a restricted current delivery thus lowering the voltage a bit.



That's really interesting. I added a 1uf to the 10uf. Boosted B+ to around 304volts. It was about 285. The power transformer is warm, but not so bad.
Waiting for my new turn table. The RIAA will be external.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Wed 28, 2018 12:45 am 
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Now you need some new vinyl too. No?
At least for testing to know that you are working with a good, clean sound.. no dirt scratches or old style audio recording.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Wed 28, 2018 12:58 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
Now you need some new vinyl too. No?
At least for testing to know that you are working with a good, clean sound.. no dirt scratches or old style audio recording.




True- I have the 'Abby Road', Beatles and the Doors 'Light My Fire' brand new. Sound great on the Dual-1019. That was before I screwed with the tone arm adjustment. All out of whack, but can be fixed. That's a whole different project.
Check this SE amp project. Might be of interest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNBgo9Md8IU

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Wed 28, 2018 2:45 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
Now you need some new vinyl too. No?
At least for testing to know that you are working with a good, clean sound.. no dirt scratches or old style audio recording.




True- I have the 'Abby Road', Beatles and the Doors 'Light My Fire' brand new. Sound great on the Dual-1019. That was before I screwed with the tone arm adjustment. All out of whack, but can be fixed. That's a whole different project.
Check this SE amp project. Might be of interest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNBgo9Md8IU

I already was following it ... but from what I see it's really no different than than the 2-tube ( 3 total for stereo) Lacewood amp I'm already doing.
The print allows fot almost every possible input and out put tube swap,
So it's the same as my 6SL7 feeding a 6V6.
So far. I don't know when part 2 will be out.
The other amp he did took 7-10 months to finish maybe more?
I like seeing the videos a lot ...but not waiting for the next one... lol...

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Wed 28, 2018 5:11 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
Now you need some new vinyl too. No?
At least for testing to know that you are working with a good, clean sound.. no dirt scratches or old style audio recording.




True- I have the 'Abby Road', Beatles and the Doors 'Light My Fire' brand new. Sound great on the Dual-1019. That was before I screwed with the tone arm adjustment. All out of whack, but can be fixed. That's a whole different project.
Check this SE amp project. Might be of interest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNBgo9Md8IU

I already was following it ... but from what I see it's really no different than than the 2-tube ( 3 total for stereo) Lacewood amp I'm already doing.
The print allows fot almost every possible input and out put tube swap,
So it's the same as my 6SL7 feeding a 6V6.
So far. I don't know when part 2 will be out.
The other amp he did took 7-10 months to finish maybe more?
I like seeing the videos a lot ...but not waiting for the next one... lol...



One of my favorite things, all the amp building and repairing vids. He explained a bit of the difference of the SE and PP amps. Interested in your 6V6 SE build.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Wed 28, 2018 5:40 am 
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BTW John:
For your edification, here's another easy to use calculator site.
This one is for calculating DROPPER circuit component values ... so very easy.

http://www.nomad.ee/micros/transformerless/index.shtml

Try entering the values you are using on the 13v supply and for the 20v supply to see what it shows as the min/max current available to the load.

Nice.. easy too.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Wed 28, 2018 6:04 am 
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john8750 wrote:
One of my favorite things, all the amp building and repairing vids. He explained a bit of the difference of the SE and PP amps. Interested in your 6V6 SE build.

Yes, recently I've been entertaining myself with these same videos... a nice learning, and entertaining pass time activity.... when the video is done properly that is.... like Blueglow, Mr. Carlson's lab, etc

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Feb Wed 28, 2018 6:23 am 
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More nice easy-reading material about dropper capacitor power supplies:
http://www.electroschematics.com/5678/c ... er-supply/

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