Forums :: Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives :: Books
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently Nov Mon 24, 2014 1:14 pm


All times are UTC [ DST ]



Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Tue 22, 2011 11:21 pm 
Member

Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 3568
Location: Florida
I just picked up a pair of these today for $60, and I thought it would be fun to do a review of them...I hope you enjoy, and add your own comments as well.

But first, a little background on them. The KG 3 was one of Klipsch's entry-level floorstanding speakers produced from 1990-92. They are a two-way design featuring an 8" woofer, front-mounted passive radiator, and a horn tweeter. The price per pair at that time was approx. $650. Sensitivity is 94 dB, and frequency response is given as 31-20,000 Hz.

I gave these a thorough wringing out, listening to everything from techno to Elvis. We'll start with the woofer. As stated, bottom end is listed as 31 Hz and my ears say they will do it, but it's hardly an effortless endeavor. The overall bass characteristic is that of boomyness; hardly smooth. In addition, on more demanding material, my ears picked up some slight but definite woofer cavitation and breakup, but I will admit that this was the exception and not the rule. Even though this is a two-way design, I was quite shocked at how poorly voiced the speaker was; crossovers are something that Klipsch usually excels at, but in this speaker, there was a glaring lack of midrange. Onward to the tweeter, which is probably the brightest point of these speakers (pun intended). They have a very satisfying level of resolution and detail, and instruments like cymbals and strings sing. However, this resolution also turned into the speaker's weak point when playing material such as heavy metal; guitars sounded extremely shrill, and had me lunging for the amplifier's treble control. If you have more sedate musical tastes, you will probably enjoy the tweeters, as they sounded well balanced on 75% of the music I played.

Overall impression; these speakers were built at a price point, and it shows. The casual listener will probably fall in love with them, but for the more discerning listener, you can do far better for $650.

_________________
William


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Tue 22, 2011 11:32 pm 
Member

Joined: May Sat 14, 2011 5:42 am
Posts: 3043
Location: Ft Worth TX
Quote:
when playing material such as heavy metal; guitars sounded extremely shrill
That makes them accurate. Shrill is the whole idea of metal. Makes my teeth hurt. Like chewing aluminum foil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Tue 22, 2011 11:52 pm 
Member

Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 3568
Location: Florida
arbilab wrote:
Quote:
when playing material such as heavy metal; guitars sounded extremely shrill
That makes them accurate. Shrill is the whole idea of metal. Makes my teeth hurt. Like chewing aluminum foil.


:lol: ...well let's just say that other speakers can play it without being harsh.

_________________
William


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Wed 23, 2011 5:47 am 
Member

Joined: May Sat 14, 2011 5:42 am
Posts: 3043
Location: Ft Worth TX
:lol: My L100s can't. I had a young friend used to bring his metal over. I'd tolerate what I could, which wasn't much. Then we'd switch to Hendrix or Eminem.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Wed 23, 2011 4:57 pm 
Member

Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 3568
Location: Florida
arbilab wrote:
:lol: My L100s can't. I had a young friend used to bring his metal over. I'd tolerate what I could, which wasn't much. Then we'd switch to Hendrix or Eminem.


You bring up a good point there...these speakers will play Eminem all day long and sound good doing it....just keep the metal guitar away from them :lol:

But I have a question about the boomy bass; maybe a product of room acoustics? This is a new house that I have them set up in, and the room they are in have hardwood floors. I"ve hooked up my Cerwin Vegas in this room (which sounded pretty good at the other house), and in this room they sound rather dull and lifeless.

_________________
William


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Wed 23, 2011 11:16 pm 
Member

Joined: May Sat 14, 2011 5:42 am
Posts: 3043
Location: Ft Worth TX
Eminem is quite the exception. Those aren't just studio guys, they're the ones who play for movie soundtracks and it's mixed accordingly. You just don't get that in pop.

Muddy bass is often an issue. Many listeners don't discern as long as they feel SOMEthing 'down there'. Certain speakers, placement is critical. L100s sound like poo if you stand them upright like 4311s which use the exact same components.

Sitting on the floor puts the speaker at the apex of a horn, which may not be favorable. I thought Klipschs were designed to take that into consideration, but I've only seen one Klipsch model.

I have to EQ down the 3rd octave to clear up the first two. Doubling is a common phenomenon in speakers, wherein 40Hz input produces as much or more at 80Hz than it does at the fundamental. I'd call that muddy.

Room corners are horns, again which may not be favorable. They're still horns even if the speakers aren't located there. Generally, sound doesn't appreciate right angles once it's radiated. Cathedral ceilings will always sound better than flat ceilings. You don't see many box-shaped concert halls.

I've got a TON of intuition on sound dispersal but it doesn't lend itself to text where I'm not looking at/listening to the soundspace.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Thu 24, 2011 3:17 am 
Member

Joined: Aug Sun 01, 2010 1:12 am
Posts: 6715
Location: Minnesota
I have the KG 4's. These came out about 1984. Twin live 8's with a horn in the front and a 12" passive radiator in the back. They sold new for $550. At the time, they were the absolute best speaker, at their price point, that I had heard. They became our best selling model for quite a while. They could blow Polk, Boston, or Infinity out of the water. JBL or ADS didn't have anything comparable in the price range. And none were as efficient. They are not Heresy efficient, which is probably a good thing unless you want PA speakers, but are better than nearly any other speaker. I want to say 93db. I've used them on hardwood and carpet, in the corners, or just near a wall. Placement makes a difference on the rear passive radiator but not as much as you would think and minor tone adjustments can compensate.

They still are a wonderful sounding speaker. The bass is like the best of both worlds, the tightness of the 8's and the lower response from the radiator but not muddy at all on anything I've ever played on them. The horn is the weak spot, it is a tad harsh, but just a tiny tad. There is a common mod available to fine tune it. I just use mine with Paradigm Titans which have an extremely smooth high end. The two combined produce a sound that I have yet to find a better answer for within a reasonable price however the Klipsch's do sound really good all by themselves. The Titans just give them the extra little spice on the high end and a dome does sound different than a horn. Both together sound pretty dang good. I used to change speakers every couple of years but since I've had these, they do the job.

I've not heard KG3's but I sold KG2's and they were real dogs IMHO. The only Klipsch speaker, from that vintage (80-86), that I would recommend staying away from. Very muddy and terrible highs. Just an all around crappy speaker. I'm surprised Paul let that one get out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Thu 24, 2011 6:09 am 
Member

Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 3568
Location: Florida
arbilab wrote:
Eminem is quite the exception. Those aren't just studio guys, they're the ones who play for movie soundtracks and it's mixed accordingly. You just don't get that in pop.

Muddy bass is often an issue. Many listeners don't discern as long as they feel SOMEthing 'down there'. Certain speakers, placement is critical. L100s sound like poo if you stand them upright like 4311s which use the exact same components.

Sitting on the floor puts the speaker at the apex of a horn, which may not be favorable. I thought Klipschs were designed to take that into consideration, but I've only seen one Klipsch model.

I have to EQ down the 3rd octave to clear up the first two. Doubling is a common phenomenon in speakers, wherein 40Hz input produces as much or more at 80Hz than it does at the fundamental. I'd call that muddy.

Room corners are horns, again which may not be favorable. They're still horns even if the speakers aren't located there. Generally, sound doesn't appreciate right angles once it's radiated. Cathedral ceilings will always sound better than flat ceilings. You don't see many box-shaped concert halls.

I've got a TON of intuition on sound dispersal but it doesn't lend itself to text where I'm not looking at/listening to the soundspace.


I will definitely experiment with placement. But I seem to have the boomy bass problem under control. I have always preferred to run my speakers reverse-phase (that is, amp negative to speaker positive and vice versa)...I've found that reversing the polarity affects bass damping quite a bit, and reverse phase has always sounded better to my ears. Well for whatever reason (probably haste), I connected them up "properly".....today I saw what I did, and I reversed the connections; BIG difference in damping characterists. Connecting them up with correct polarity produces more overall bass, but at the cost of boominess. They are starting to grow on me a little, but nothing is going to make up for the glaring lack of midrange; even my el cheapo Cerwin Vega bookshelfs do a far better job of that.

gregg, I know what you are saying; hard to believe that a stickler like Paul would have let that slide...but I have a feeling that maybe as he got older (and he was pretty old by then), he might have let the marketing guys have a little sway. I still have the utmost respect for the Klipsch nameplate, and my dream one day is to own a pair of Cornwalls.

Have you guys tried the reverse phase experiment? If not, it's pretty interesting.

_________________
William


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Thu 24, 2011 8:22 am 
Member

Joined: May Sat 14, 2011 5:42 am
Posts: 3043
Location: Ft Worth TX
Not to contracept your perceptions William, I'm not there hearing what you're hearing.

But if you hear a difference between polarities--assuming you mean changing both speakers' polarity at the same time and "polarity" meaning whether amp 'ground' is connected to speaker 'black'--you are delusional. There is NOTHING polarized about a bass waveform. It's absolutely symmetrical from one half cycle to the next and the speaker wouldn't care even if it weren't.

At the same time, nevermind what I think, do what sounds good to you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Thu 24, 2011 8:26 pm 
Member

Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 3568
Location: Florida
Yep, both speakers at the same time, and amp neg to speaker pos, amp pos to speaker neg.

I've noticed a difference everytime I've tried it, but as the old saying goes, your mileage may vary.

_________________
William


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 3:43 am 
Member

Joined: May Sat 14, 2011 5:42 am
Posts: 3043
Location: Ft Worth TX
Sorry, the 'delusional' remark was harsh without context. You probably already know that what we're expecting to hear has an impact on what we experience. Like people who swear they can hear the difference between a $5 power cord and a $200 one. Hear a power cord?

Well, I can't tell them they are NOT hearing it.

I go by two basics: Can I tell what note the bass is playing? Do percussives (piano, drums) sound like a live instrument? My reference recording is Home At Last from Steely Dan's Aja and has been since it came out (1977?). If that sounds right, everything else falls into place.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 4:16 am 
Member

Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 3568
Location: Florida
I can respect that, but I wasn't expecting to hear anything; I am completely unbiased. If you need proof of that, wouldn't I try to talk up the speakers I just bought and give them a stellar rating if I was biased?

My test is simple; I'll play something with alot of bass, and note how the bass notes sound. Then I reverse the leads and try it again. In every example I've ever tried (at least a dozen times or more), the bass sounded different with reversed polarity. Would the average listener notice? Most likely not. It's a nuance thing.

And anyone that says they notice a difference in cables is flat out nuts :lol:

_________________
William


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 6:26 am 
Member

Joined: May Sat 14, 2011 5:42 am
Posts: 3043
Location: Ft Worth TX
My L100s came with the woofers hooked up internally opposite one from the other. I didn't catch on for an embarrassingly long time (weeks). But I DID catch on.

Could I hear a power cord? Not likely, even if there WAS a difference. I would not be expecting to hear one. But if there was a jig, two proven-identical systems then change the power cord on one and A/B and it sounded different I'd consent.

I like to think I have an objective ear. That's why I stick to one evaluation track that has actual instruments recorded VERY clearly, and the aural memory thereof. Aural memory is notoriously fuzzy, and mine is better than average since I can mimic voices. I do Bullwinkle so well his own mother couldn't tell the difference.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 1:44 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 136
The main thing is do you feel you got your $60 worth? The response of 31-21K you have to remember that its going to be at least 3db down at 31 hz. If you had a pink noise generator and analyzer with the ability to graph the response you would see that the usable low end would probably be seen as around 80-100hz and the 21K figure would probably be 3db down also with peaks and dips near the crossover point. Not going to be ruller straight response.

I am the owner of 3) Klipsch Heresy speakers that are left over from my theatre system in the other house. While the Heresy is a very efficient speaker I also find that the low end is lacking in the sealed box design. Yet redesign a new box with more area with proper porting and modification to the crossover to allow for (2) of the low frequency drivers and you find yourself smiling with the tightness and accuracy of the low end.

If you feel the low end is lacking then purchase or make a subwoofer to go along with the KG3's after all you don't have much in them.

I evaluate speakers, amplifiers, and components with an EV test CD. Has about everything you need on it from decent music to test tones.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 10:52 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 11896
Location: Warner Robins, GA
I can testify from experience that running a speaker reverse phase does affect the bass some because the woofer cone goes inward as the waveform goes positive. The ideal is to have the cone move outward as the waveform goes positive.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 10:59 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 136
Running the output of the amplifier positive to the speaker positive is not necessarily the way to go. If the preamp for example inverts the signal does it not become necessary to invert the output of the amplifier? Checking the bass response sounds logical to me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 11:06 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 11896
Location: Warner Robins, GA
I agree there. One ideally needs to connect an oscilloscope to the speaker jacks with a signal generator connected to the preamp and see what phase the signal is coming out of the speaker jacks then wire the speakers accordingly. Do that if the manufacturer does not state whether the audio device is inverting or non-inverting.

If the tweeters are the same as used in the KG 4 then a replacement diaphragm made from titanium will do wonders for the tweeters so I have heard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 11:12 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 136
We agree

titanium however may require a tweek of the crossover network. One must then be prepared to break out the pink noise generator, analyzer, calibrated mic and take a good look see at the change in responce that will result from the tweeter switch. It will very well be too hot and require modification in order to be as flat and natural as it should be. The pay off will be a better sounding speaker.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 11:18 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 11896
Location: Warner Robins, GA
What I am wondering is why cannot one make the speaker bi amped? That way one could have almost total control on how the speakers sound.

I have a pair of the KG 4 tweeters in my DIY four way active system, but have yet to order the titanium diaphragms as I really don't see a need for them given they sound just fine to my ears.

Could the problem also be due to aging crossover caps?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Care to hear my review of the Klipsch KG 3?
PostPosted: Nov Fri 25, 2011 11:48 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 136
quote:
What I am wondering is why cannot one make the speaker bi amped? That way one could have almost total control on how the speakers sound.

Large commercial systems are sometimes tri or bi amped to obtain the most from the system. Bi amping a small two way or three way is probably above the desire level of most arm chair audio lovers. It does however open the door to individual amplifiers for high frequency and low frequency reproduction. Then the size of the amplifier can be sized more logical for the drive of its component. We have then opened the door to the possiblity of DSP processing in for a better EQ and driver alignment and delay.

Quote:
Could the problem also be due to aging crossover caps?


I doubt if its a problem associated with the crossover caps.


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], radiowizard and 7 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  
















Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB