Forums :: Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives :: Books
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently Nov Tue 13, 2018 9:03 pm


All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Aug Sun 27, 2017 1:47 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb Fri 25, 2011 12:57 am
Posts: 2247
Location: 08033 Cherry Hill Jersey
Just wanted to let you know I saw a Muntz tv for sale for $48 on South Street at Retrospect. Big boxy table top, missing a knob.

_________________
Want Taylor 756 tube
8008 tubes
Stromberg 1A chassis
KD2AZI


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Aug Sun 27, 2017 5:21 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb Thu 17, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 11663
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
All Muntz TV's are boxy, but I always wanted one early example in my collection just for historical reasons. This one, the M21, is, unfortunately, about as nice as they get:
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Aug Sun 27, 2017 7:50 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep Wed 04, 2013 2:23 pm
Posts: 711
Location: Atlanta, GA
67 here and I remember a Muntz stereo store in Atlanta on Roswell Road. Here's a neat YouTube link on Muntz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5sysqu3Swk

_________________
Real Radios GLOW In The Dark
Southeastern Antique Radio Society SARS 1991
www.sarsradio.com
K4DLM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Aug Sun 27, 2017 10:53 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb Thu 17, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 11663
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
Dnitram wrote:
67 here and I remember a Muntz stereo store in Atlanta on Roswell Road. Here's a neat YouTube link on Muntz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5sysqu3Swk

Thank you for that link. You have to give the man credit for making his mark in pop-culture history!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Tue 02, 2018 4:17 pm 
New Member

Joined: Oct Sun 29, 2017 8:46 pm
Posts: 8
Location: West Chester, PA
In Philadelphia ... POplar 5-0303 ... there's something about a Muntz TV.

My Dad told me about Muntz taking tubes from a set until it wouldn't work then putting the last one back in...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_Muntz


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Thu 04, 2018 6:14 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 13176
KKelly wrote:
In Philadelphia ... POplar 5-0303 ... there's something about a Muntz TV.

My Dad told me about Muntz taking tubes from a set until it wouldn't work then putting the last one back in...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_Muntz

Popular myth but not true...

The sets were designed with less tubes so generally gave somewhat mediocre performance, but tubes were never just "pulled" till set stopped playing(most B&W were series string, pulling any tube killed them)... First Muntz Color set I saw was a RCA CTC 15 clone, had all the tubes that were in RCA's version...

_________________
Tom


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Thu 04, 2018 8:09 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jun Fri 20, 2014 7:10 pm
Posts: 884
Some time ago, I ran across a schematic of a Muntz TV, as well as some photos of a Muntz chassis. Muntz used a locked oscillator for the horizontal sweep, rather that the phase locked loop circuits that most other manufacturers used. The IF coils were generally not shielded. Decoupling capacitors were used only where absolutely necessary. The Muntz engineers were quite methodical and deliberate in their efforts to produce a television with a simplified bill of materials (compare these designs to something like an RCA 630-ts with its elaborate horizontal sweep and power supply sections). The Muntz designs were to television what the All-American 5 was to radio.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Sat 06, 2018 6:23 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov Thu 11, 2010 6:03 pm
Posts: 676
Location: Pewaukee, WI
35Z5 wrote:
KKelly wrote:
In Philadelphia ... POplar 5-0303 ... there's something about a Muntz TV.

My Dad told me about Muntz taking tubes from a set until it wouldn't work then putting the last one back in...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madman_Muntz

Popular myth but not true...

The sets were designed with less tubes so generally gave somewhat mediocre performance, but tubes were never just "pulled" till set stopped playing(most B&W were series string, pulling any tube killed them)... First Muntz Color set I saw was a RCA CTC 15 clone, had all the tubes that were in RCA's version...


Their first color set was a stock RCA made CTC-5 (ironically the most Muntz like RCA color chassis for a decade) with a cheaper tuner, and a cheaper cabinet. They made RCA clone color sets for as long as I know they made color....I have an Airline 25" Rectangular color set made by Muntz that is also an RCA clone (CTC-17 IIRC).

Muntzes early monochrome offerings included a somewhat infamous chassis (IIRC it is in the 3 knob cabinet pictured above) that instead of having 5 horizontal stage tubes (horizontal AFC, OSC, Output, damper, HV rect) they made it work with just 2 (self oscilating/synchronized output tube and a HV rect)! That set is often atributed to Muntz, but IIRC it was actually designed and made by Belmont or some other firm and merely was rebadged by Muntz.

While later Muntz built sets did exhibit a lot of clever cost engineering, they were far from the only ones doing it....

Look at GE in the 60's! CRT socket?...Screw that; we can just stick the bare metal terminals from a socket onto the CRT pins and save $0.05 a TV set on the socket wafer! Hey, lets make the FP can lytic a permanent integral part of the set by clamping part of the chassis to the top of it....Wait why do we even need a chassis just mount the PCB to the cabinet!
Look at their Portacolor. They made an 11 tube color TV when most makers did not drop below 21 (without replacing a tube with a transistor). AFAIK it was the only tube color set to have it's entire schematic fit onto an 11x17 sheet in it's Sam's folder....There were monochrome sets with more complex circuits! And you have to love their chroma reference system: PLL synched crystal oscillator?...RCA must be nuts!...Just take the gated burst, feed it to a tank circuit that will ring until the next burst and add an amplitude limiter.
GE's may have been very cheaply made, but they always seemed to work better than they deserved to and better than most other sets competing for cheapness.

Motorola's VT-71 while not radical by mid 50's standards was radical for its time (~1947)...It had performance on par with the ~40 tube behemoths that were then considered industry standards while using IIRC ~16 tubes and every clever bleeding edge circuit trick they could think of.

Muntz did not do it first, they did not do it best, but they did do it the most flamboyantly/notoriously.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Sat 06, 2018 8:44 pm 
New Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec Fri 02, 2016 7:38 am
Posts: 11
My word! I looked up the Muntz schematic on ETF and that horizontal section is a real head scratcher:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/muntz-m12-rider3.pdf

Did it work fairly well or was it a poor performer?

jr


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Sun 07, 2018 1:39 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb Thu 17, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 11663
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
jr_tech wrote:
My word! I looked up the Muntz schematic on ETF and that horizontal section is a real head scratcher:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/muntz-m12-rider3.pdf

Did it work fairly well or was it a poor performer?

jr

I heard they play fine, but maybe someone who actually did a resto could chime in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Sun 07, 2018 4:57 am 
Member

Joined: May Sun 07, 2017 11:35 am
Posts: 434
There were a few pre-war British sets that used that idea.
I've never seen it used with a negative modulation TV system like EIA 525 or CCIR 625.
Locked oscillators were common in 405 line designs because impulse noise doesn't have much effect on the sync with positive modulation, it's just much more noticeable in the picture than is the case with negative modulation.
There would be the problem of any impulse noise causing picture tearing and I shudder to think what ghosting would do....
Probably OK on a perfect signal though. Like a DVD playing through a modulator.
But I wonder how well it performed as the tube (hor OP / osc) aged?
RCA didn't design Synchro-lock for no reason!

We saw some cut-price designs in Australia in the early days but nothing quite like that It sounds like the Muntz reputation was justified!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Sun 07, 2018 2:25 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 8210
Location: Beaver Falls, PA. USA
I once ran into a "gutless wonder" early Bendix that had a similar squirrely horizontal circuit; I wonder if Muntz got it from them.

When color TV became "hot" during 1961-65, just about everyone (except Zenith) used a clone of the RCA CTC-11, 12, 15, or 16 chassis. Some, like the GE CX, were apparently an in-between step from the 12 to the 15. As in the early days of B&W, pressure to drive the prices down led some companies to develop Muntzish designs, in an attempt to have a color set below $400. Some were notorious in the service industry, like the Sears Silver Scenic and 4168, the GE Portacolor, and others. They were color sets, but far from the quality of RCA and Zenith.

_________________
Tim KA3JRT


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Sun 07, 2018 3:27 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 13176
Silver Senic, that brings back memories(similar to nightmares)... Had great flesh tones, if you liked orange... For me only thing that lives on is the 9KC6 I used in one of my transmitters...

The 4168/41681 was a Consumer Reports best buy, including 8168 & 9168, Sears must have sold a million of them... Of course there are two versions(difference between 4168 & 41681 I believe) early ones had the RCA type chroma, with series string tubes(8GU7, 5EW6 etc)... The later ones used a Warwick design that performed fairly decent... Problem with those was they ran so hot we had to replace cabinets, tuner mounting and backs crumbled to dust..

After Sylvania went to the single section 40KD6(earlier versions had dual sections in parallel) those became a big issue, often didn't last a couple months... I started adding a 25 ohm @ 25 watt to heater string, that improved longevity probably 500%.. Of course by that time we were being supplied with 42KN6 that were no better than the 40KD6... I talked with techs in shop and we came up with kits of wire, terminal strip & resistor, hanging on side of HV cage could install one in 6-8 minutes...

_________________
Tom


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Sun 07, 2018 8:14 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 8210
Location: Beaver Falls, PA. USA
Hi, Tom... They a!so had the dial lights running from the 120 volt line, with a big ballast resistor in series. That ran so hot that the terminal strip which it was mounted on would deteriorate, and crumble into bits.

GE was always trying to reduce the cost of their sets. The joke was that GE stood for "good enough"!

_________________
Tim KA3JRT


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Muntz TV spotted in Phila
PostPosted: Jan Tue 09, 2018 8:51 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov Thu 11, 2010 6:03 pm
Posts: 676
Location: Pewaukee, WI
Tim Tress wrote:
I once ran into a "gutless wonder" early Bendix that had a similar squirrely horizontal circuit; I wonder if Muntz got it from them.

When color TV became "hot" during 1961-65, just about everyone (except Zenith) used a clone of the RCA CTC-11, 12, 15, or 16 chassis. Some, like the GE CX, were apparently an in-between step from the 12 to the 15. As in the early days of B&W, pressure to drive the prices down led some companies to develop Muntzish designs, in an attempt to have a color set below $400. Some were notorious in the service industry, like the Sears Silver Scenic and 4168, the GE Portacolor, and others. They were color sets, but far from the quality of RCA and Zenith.

Every tube era GE color schematic I've seen from their first 15GP22 based color set up through their hybrids had their tank circuit based chroma reference circuit...IIRC even their RCA based designs differed in that part of the chroma section.


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 15 posts ]  Moderators: 7jp4-guy, Mr. Detrola

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 8417, davidff, Pearson and 2 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  
























Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB