Forums :: Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives :: Books
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently Feb Wed 21, 2018 4:38 pm


All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Fri 19, 2018 5:15 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct Mon 05, 2015 10:04 pm
Posts: 459
Location: Worcester Massachusetts
I just purchased an ICF-2010 off of everyone's favorite auction website. For years, users have raved over its Sync Detection feature. I bought the Grundig Satellit 800 Millenium last year, and honestly was less than impressed with its Sync Detection. The other night, I watched a video on YouTube where a user did a demo of the radio, and for some strange reason, he was trying to get both red LED lights to come on at the same time. My understanding is that you try to get EITHER upper or lower lights to come on, as you are tuning in either upper or lower, not both at the same time.

Am I right? And, is Sync Detection simply, as I maintain, a marketing gimmick? Or, does it really work well? The funny thing is that people rave about it, yet do not detail what it can do, and, incorrectly, IMHO, use it all the time. My understanding is that it is for either signals with selective fading, or adjacent signal interference where it makes sense to tune in either the upper, or lower, carrier, away from the interferring adjacent signal.

Am I off here?

Thanks, Arthur

_________________
TransOceanic A600,1000, 3000-1, Hallicrafters SX-42, S-38, S-40, Icom R-71A, Kenwood R-2000


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Fri 19, 2018 5:59 pm 
Member

Joined: Apr Sat 16, 2011 2:25 am
Posts: 379
Location: Victor, MT USA
Hi, IMHO I can't hear much difference when using sync detector. It might help prevent fading slightly. I have it on a couple 2010's and had it on a Drake SW8 and never use it. For fading have different antennas at different polarization works much better. For interference I use a DSP outboard filter which works really well. Have fun, Alan

_________________
Don't worry about old age; it doesn't last that long.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Fri 19, 2018 6:18 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct Mon 05, 2015 10:04 pm
Posts: 459
Location: Worcester Massachusetts
Thank you for confirming my suspicions. My feeling is that those who say its a great feature have had it jammed down their throat by manufacturers and the people who market. It is amazing how those who say "it's great" conveniently never, ever say what it is exactly that they like about it. Or, they will obsess over the radio's ability or inability to maintain lock. It simply is a marketing gimmick.

I have playes with ECSS using the BFO, on several radios, and find it much more useful.

_________________
TransOceanic A600,1000, 3000-1, Hallicrafters SX-42, S-38, S-40, Icom R-71A, Kenwood R-2000


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Sat 20, 2018 1:30 pm 
Moderator

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 19503
Location: Utica, NY 13502 (USA)
Synchronous detection can only be appreciated when it is actually needed. Seems to work fine on my 2010.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Sat 20, 2018 3:06 pm 
Member

Joined: May Sat 12, 2012 1:33 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Rochester, NY.
At the time, the sync detection (ISB) on the ICF-2010 was a benchmark for full-feature portable radios.
You want to fine-tune (0.1 kHz) either the upper or lower sideband to quiet the adjacent interference. It is useful on a crowded band, like in Europe with the 9kHz spacing. It affords good fidelity instead of cutting back bandwidth (selectivity) to reduce adjacent station interference.
It can drift after initially setting it and will 'heterodyne' until readjusted. There are more stable sync detectors today than what was novel in the 1980's.
The ICF-2010 is still a good receiver and highly sought after, but with what is offered today, it might be considered more mediocre. Many for sale out there today are over-priced IMHO. Technology marches on and there are better choices.
In 1987, I had to choose between the ICF-2010 or a Satellit. I chose the Sony. It was not a disappointment and it has become an iconic radio.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Sat 20, 2018 9:45 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar Mon 17, 2008 5:05 am
Posts: 5090
Location: Ashhurst, New Zealand
I have a commercial marine receiver, a Debeg 7313, that has Sync. detection always 'on' when AM selected, you can't turn it off. The quality of the sound, even on SW BC bands is excellent. There is no bandwidth limiting filter as normally expected, a TBA120 IC does all the work, extracting the 1.4MHz IF carrier, limits it's amplitude and then applies it to the same balanced demodulator that the SSB detector uses. I've never heard it drop out even on the weakest of signals.
The schematic is in the Skanti R5001 service manual which is downloadable.

_________________
Cheers - Martin ZL2MC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Sat 20, 2018 11:15 pm 
Member

Joined: May Sat 12, 2012 1:33 pm
Posts: 1397
Location: Rochester, NY.
Since the AM sidebands are symmetrical, you only need to send and hear one of them. You won't miss the other (redundant) sideband not being there. A reduced carrier also saves power.
AME (equivalent) is an efficient AM mode to use:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibl ... ansmission


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Sun 21, 2018 1:24 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 26418
Location: SoCal, 91387
ArthurTransOceanic wrote:
I just purchased an ICF-2010 off of everyone's favorite auction website. For years, users have raved over its Sync Detection feature. I bought the Grundig Satellit 800 Millenium last year, and honestly was less than impressed with its Sync Detection. The other night, I watched a video on YouTube where a user did a demo of the radio, and for some strange reason, he was trying to get both red LED lights to come on at the same time. My understanding is that you try to get EITHER upper or lower lights to come on, as you are tuning in either upper or lower, not both at the same time.

Am I right? And, is Sync Detection simply, as I maintain, a marketing gimmick? Or, does it really work well? The funny thing is that people rave about it, yet do not detail what it can do, and, incorrectly, IMHO, use it all the time. My understanding is that it is for either signals with selective fading, or adjacent signal interference where it makes sense to tune in either the upper, or lower, carrier, away from the interferring adjacent signal.

Am I off here?

Thanks, Arthur

No, it's not a marketing gimmick, and is indeed a useful feature. The filter options include wide, narrow, sync, upper S/B and lower S/B, and each has a reason to be there.

On a strong, clearly received local station, the wide feature offers full fidelity. The narrow feature helps in isolating the particular desired station from adjacent noise or other stations. Sync or either of the side band filters are quite useful when trying to lock onto a weak DX. I believe the feature is "raveable" since few if any other consumer grade receivers offer either the option at all, or so many choices of it.

I also have a C Crane "CCRadioSW", which has wide and narrow filter positions for AM and SW, so while helpful, certainly not in the same league as the Sony.

_________________
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\He Who Dies With The Most Radios Wins//////////////////


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Sun 21, 2018 6:11 am 
Member

Joined: Apr Wed 29, 2015 3:33 pm
Posts: 26
Right, it is indeed NOT a gimmick.

It is not supposed to reduce fading, but reduce distortion caused by fading, as well as the filtering uses mentioned in the previous post.

Most people who think it is a gimmick or that it does nothing, tend to not know what it is or what it does or how to use it, and/or have never used a *good* one.

When it is needed, it's fantastic. It's not needed all the time, and is certainly not needed on moderate to strong non-fading signals, if that's what you've been using it on; you won't hear any good from it in that case.

But find a DX signal or a weaker, fading signal and see if it doesn't at least reduce the distortion that happens during fading.

It helps. The best ones help the best. The sync on the 2010 is one of the best I've ever used, portable or otherwise.

No gimmick, to be sure.



73 de N0TLD
Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Sun 21, 2018 8:29 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar Mon 17, 2008 5:05 am
Posts: 5090
Location: Ashhurst, New Zealand
Wally58 said:
Quote:
Since the AM sidebands are symmetrical, you only need to send and hear one of them. You won't miss the other (redundant) sideband not being there. A reduced carrier also saves power.


Fading can be so selective that you can easily lose the carrier or one sideband of an AM transmission, so the idea of reducing the carrier amplitude before the signal is even transmitted is inviting even more 'over-modulated' distortion - and what would the receiver use for AGC reference? If you were only listening to one sideband and that faded out, you would be left with nothing.

The whole idea of synchronous detection is that the original carrier is replaced with a constant level phase locked carrier of your own so selective fading of the carrier is avoided, and with either one or both sidebands available, the chances of still achieving good reception is greatly enhanced.

_________________
Cheers - Martin ZL2MC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Mon 22, 2018 2:51 am 
Moderator

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 19503
Location: Utica, NY 13502 (USA)
Perhaps Wally was referring to the technique known as Modulation Dependent Carrier Level (MDCL) as a way of saving power which some AM and SW stations now use to save transmitter power consumption.

http://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/201 ... ier-level/

I wonder how sync detection receivers deal with that especially during periods of selective fading when the carrier is completely cancelled while the sidebands remain.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Mon 22, 2018 7:01 am 
Member

Joined: Jun Sun 15, 2014 5:37 pm
Posts: 58
"Synchronous detector" has been used to describe a lot of schemes, which accounts for varying results.

Webb (who worked for GE which did a lot of work on DSB with suppressed carrier) had a construction article in CQ, I think it was 1957. This was probably the first time a synchronous detector was covered in hobby circles. But it used the two sidebands to provide information on where to place BFO.

I'm sure few built it, it had lots of tubes and most people could live without the benefits.

In 1964, Ralph Burhans (later well known for work at VLF, especially antennas) had an article in QST about a synchronous detector, but intended for deep in noise reception. So it was mostly a PLL, which could recover CW and FM. Back then PLLs were seen mostly as a filter, regenerate a week signal, rather than to synthesize frequencies. But, it also had a product detector, so it could demodulate AM. But that needed a carrier to lock too. It could be weak, but it had to be there.

Solid state, especially ICs,m made synchronous detectors more common. Signetics released some analog PLLs in the late sixties, including one that had the extra product detector so it was the same as Ralph Burhan's circuit, except it was in an IC. So it could be used as a simple AM broadcast receiver, a direct conversion receiver but since it was synchronized with the incoming carrier. No heterodyne. But it was sold as simple, not "good as the carrier fades".

In the seventies there were all kinds of schemes along the lines, mostly locking to the carrier. Those were simpler. But some people got interested in DSBsc, which has it's own advantages, so there were some synchronous detectors that did use the two sidebands. One scheme was to multiply the incoming signal by two, which also took out amplitude variation, divide that by two, and use that to reinsert the carrier. That scheme works even if the carrier is sent along. I'm not sure how that method worked under fading.

Some receivers used what's now described as "quasi-synchronous", limit the incoming signal to get a square wave, and mix that with the incoming signal in a product detector. It had other limitations. I thought the Drake R7 used this sort.

The Drake R8 used the scheme like in Burhan's article). I think the receivers that offer selectable sideband use the sidebands to place the BFO, but it's been a while since I looked, and even those have some variation.

Michael


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Tue 23, 2018 3:31 pm 
Member

Joined: Apr Wed 29, 2015 3:33 pm
Posts: 26
Excellent post, thank you Michael. Very informative!

73 de N0TLD
Another Michael :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Jan Wed 31, 2018 9:21 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec Sun 22, 2013 5:03 am
Posts: 2382
Location: Santa Cruz mountains
A sync detector won't really do much on strong signals.

On weak signals, It can mean the difference between intelligibility and not understanding anything that is said.

The sync detector in the 2010 is probably the best ever put into a portable radio. Even Sony's later radios could not match it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Feb Thu 01, 2018 12:59 am 
Moderator

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 19503
Location: Utica, NY 13502 (USA)
As good as the Sony is, I like the one in my Grundig Satellit 500 better. But I must admit that I hardly ever use either of those radios in the sync mode since SW propagation has tanked. It was great for separating those closely-spaced (5 kHz), overmodulated international broadcast stations. But I've been noticing a lot more activity this winter.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Feb Thu 01, 2018 9:54 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct Mon 05, 2015 10:04 pm
Posts: 459
Location: Worcester Massachusetts
When you say the Sync Detector is "good", what do you like about it that it does well? I ask this because people will rave "it has a great sync", and then not qualify that with what it does well. Others will leave it on all the time, which in itself, is a bit mad.

_________________
TransOceanic A600,1000, 3000-1, Hallicrafters SX-42, S-38, S-40, Icom R-71A, Kenwood R-2000


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Feb Fri 02, 2018 4:15 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 26418
Location: SoCal, 91387
Look at my post above, Arthur; I defined it's qualities, as far as my opinion.

_________________
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\He Who Dies With The Most Radios Wins//////////////////


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Feb Fri 02, 2018 9:46 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct Mon 05, 2015 10:04 pm
Posts: 459
Location: Worcester Massachusetts
Having it does not mean it works well. I guess with this radio, like my Grundig Satellit 800, I am not impressed.

_________________
TransOceanic A600,1000, 3000-1, Hallicrafters SX-42, S-38, S-40, Icom R-71A, Kenwood R-2000


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Feb Fri 02, 2018 11:38 pm 
Moderator

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 19503
Location: Utica, NY 13502 (USA)
Sorry you are having problems. How are you testing it?

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sony ICF-2010 Sync Detection Questions
PostPosted: Feb Sat 03, 2018 3:53 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct Mon 05, 2015 10:04 pm
Posts: 459
Location: Worcester Massachusetts
Not having problems- the radio works perfectly. I guess what one person says is a great feature, another says "what is the fuss all about"?!

_________________
TransOceanic A600,1000, 3000-1, Hallicrafters SX-42, S-38, S-40, Icom R-71A, Kenwood R-2000


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 21 posts ]  Moderator: Dave Doughty Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  






















Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB