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 Post subject: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Wed 22, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Location: Lexington, KY
Hi guys, I have a question for you,

Can any of you tell me if the small plug in crystals, with the two prongs coming out one side,will work with any tube type Ham transmitter. Sorry for the crude explanation of what I am talking about but Ham radio has peaked my interest and I plan on buying a antique tube transmitter in the near future. I plan on using my Hallicrafters SX-16 super sky-rider as the receiver. I already collect and restore on the antique radio side of things, but Ham radio is completely new to me. Any pointers would be great.

Thanks for the help.

Jon


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Wed 22, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Not to put a damper on your goals, but it would be great if you actually took the exam and got a license before doing any transmitting.

Have been on this Forum for many years and encountered a variety of folks who wanted to get "on the air" first and worry about a license later.

Contact a local ham club. Most have classes to learn about ham radio and offer the FCC tests. You'll also find a large number of folks who will advise you on crystals and transmitters, etc.

Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 12:20 am 
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The de facto standard crystal for 30s-60s ham transmitters is the FT-243 type. There are others larger and smaller physically which may or may not work. Some of the older tube circuits run a fairly high crystal current that will likely damage some of the smaller modern crystals.

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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 12:37 am 
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And some people are selling little crystals stuffed into FT-243 holders so they look like the real thing. They are usable in low power oscillator circuits but will fracture in a lot of classic tube gear. I have a couple of these for 3.885 in my Ranger and Viking 500 and they drift about 100 hz the first few seconds at the start of each transmission which is OK for AM but would be horrible for CW and they certainly wouldn't stand up where the oscillator is designed to produce significant power.

I echo the first poster's thoughts, get your license first and avoid the memorization courses because to operate classic gear you do need to understand theory and practice with all of the associated "gotchas" that come with operating this gear. I guess the current "license in a cracker jack box" approach is fine for appliance operators who buy a modern no tune transceiver but it isn't sufficient for those who desire understanding.

Although you are already familiar with a lot of aspects of antique/vintage radio I believe you will find one of the older (mid 70s or earlier) editions of the ARRL book "Understanding Amateur Radio" extremely helpful. You can find much better pricing than this so I don't suggest buying it but here is a link so you will know what the cover style looks like on this book, there are multiple editions but the style is similar and easily recognized: http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Ama ... 0872596036

Rodger WQ9E


Last edited by rsingl on May Thu 23, 2013 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 12:39 am 
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Hi Jon,

Glad to hear that you're interested in becoming a ham!

The old equipment is great to play with, but I'm not sure an SX-16 and an antique transmitter would be the best choice for a beginner's setup on today's ham bands. Most voice communication nowadays is single sideband (SSB). The SX-16 is far from ideal for that and an antique transmitter will be incapable of it. You can find some AM activity but you have to look for it. Do you plan to learn Morse code (CW)?

I would recommend a radio of mid-60's vintage (such as a Drake 4-line) or later for a beginner today. Then you can use SSB, AM, or CW and see what they all are like, and set up an antique station for AM/CW once you are familiar with the bands.

You will need a General class license to do anything other than CW on the bands below 10 meters.

A great source of info on older transmitters, crystals, etc. is one of the ARRL handbooks from the 40's or 50's: http://www.amazon.com/1955-Radio-Amateu ... dbook+1955

Matt AE6HF


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 12:46 am 
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Location: Lexington, KY
I will get my licence before I ever would think about transmitting. I am just trying to better understand the vintage side of the Ham hobby. I just wanted to know about the crystals. If I can find a transmitter closer to the 30's era that would be great I have been looking, but I bet they are hard to come by.

I know the crystals are a input type and you can switch them out, are they tuned to a specific frequency so you can only transmit on that given freq. The crystals I was looking to get are the larger rectangle type, I would imagine the new one's are quite small? Would the old type be about the size of a match box?

I will check out the book rsingl, sounds great

Thanks

Jon


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 12:50 am 
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skylerca,

I am going to learn Morse and just bought a Morse key, learners book, and a Morse code practice oscillator amp, I figure that would be a good start, thanks for the information on obtaining a licence.

Also could I still use the SX-16 as a receiver with a transmitter from the mid 50's? I know I want all tube tech and I know it will be more difficult to manage. How old of a transmitter could I use?

Thanks

Jon


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 12:59 am 
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ketron281989 wrote:
I am going to learn Morse and just bought a Morse key, learners book, and a Morse code practice oscillator amp, I figure that would be a good start, thanks for the information on obtaining a licence.
Also could I still use the SX-16 as a receiver with a transmitter from the mid 50's? I know I want all tube tech and I know it will be more difficult to manage. How old of a transmitter could I use?

Fantastic! CW is one of the best things about ham radio. When I first got my license I was almost exclusively a CW op and it's a great mode of communication. It also GREATLY simplifies the type of transmitter needed. You can use your SX-16 with ANY transmitter. You could easily build a vintage-style transmitter capable of 25 watts or so using plans from one of the ARRL handbooks. You could use tubes from the 1930's and it would work great with your SX-16. Go for it!

Matt AE6HF


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 1:09 am 
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Jon,

You can use pretty much any transmitter you want with your SX-16 so it pretty much comes down to availability, price, and preference.

Many of the older black face transmitters will look nice with your SX-16. I have a Hallicrafters HT-9 paired with mine but these are a bit uncommon, very heavy, and extremely large for the power level. Prior to the HT-9 I was using a Stancor 20P which is now hanging out with a National HRO.

For ease of use, restoration, and reliability I like the Johnson Viking 1 and Viking 2. The matching accessory VFO is also easy to find.

But given the weight and possible shipping damage with heavy transmitters I would give preference to what you can find nearby, perhaps at a hamfest.

Rodger WQ9E


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Stancor 20P HRO sm.JPG
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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 1:26 am 
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Wow Rodger, do you have an amazing collection or what! (Where is that emoticon for drooling?) :mrgreen:

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 1:47 am 
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Matt,

Thanks! It is a fairly harmless addiction :) (as long as I don't drop something on my foot!) It is also a good family activity and my 9 year old daughter helped me rewind the plate choke for a Swan Mark II amp today after the gnats caused an early end to tennis lessons.

The collection started with the simple quest to recreate my 1975 novice station which was a Johnson Valiant and Hallicrafters SX-101.

It is a very nice escape from modern technology and my real job.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 4:22 am 
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rsingl,

Those are real slick, I really like the National, I noticed your mic in the picture. Is it possible to use any type of mike for Ham radio, more specifically a RCA Ribbon or 1920's Carbon Spring? It sure would be nice to find a hallicrafters like that but I know they are uncommon, I have not really had any luck with finding antique transmitters from the 30's.

I moved down to Arkansas back in December, close to the Texas and Oklahoma border. And here I would be lucky to even find an antique radio, I was spoiled living in Ohio with the commonality of radios that I would find, down here there are very few and no radio shows so far. All I really have is my Ohio collection, enough radios to keep me busy till next year.

I will be on the look out for a 1930's or early 1940's transmitter, I might have to settle for a later transmitter. I did some searching on the internet.

I now know that there are several common bands that amateur radio operators use and have noticed that most use 40 and 80 meters. I now know that the crystals are tuned for a certain frequency and after a conversion from KC to MHz I can see which meter scale they rest on.

Another question, do many armateur's operators still use AM to transmit I hear the fidelity is quite great.

Here is my SX-16 Super Skyrider, I will do a electrical restoration, but it still plays fine as it is.

Thanks

Jon


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SSCN2770.JPG
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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 6:06 am 
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Jon, that is a beautiful Skyrider you have there!

Quote:
I will be on the look out for a 1930's or early 1940's transmitter, I might have to settle for a later transmitter.

One reason it is not so easy to find a transmitter from that era is that most hams built their own. A transmitter is simpler and less finicky to build than a receiver, especially if it is for CW only. Most used commercial receivers and built their own transmitters.

Quote:
I now know that there are several common bands that amateur radio operators use and have noticed that most use 40 and 80 meters.

I wouldn't say that most use 40 and 80 meters. Many do, but all of the HF bands get a lot of use. The 20, 17, and 15-meter bands are very popular during the daytime. There is a special club devoted to the 10-meter band. And a lot of hams specialize in VHF, UHF, or microwave (GHz and above) frequencies!

Quote:
Another question, do many armateur's operators still use AM to transmit I hear the fidelity is quite great.

I would say better than 95% of voice ("phone") communication on the amateur bands today is SSB. The 5% or less who use AM cluster around certain frequencies, for example 3870 kHz in the 75 meter band. There are websites devoted to this AM niche such as http://www.amfone.net and http://www.ami-west.com.

Fidelity is related to bandwidth and the quality of audio processing. High fidelity can be achieved in both AM and SSB. SSB takes up only half the space of AM, so a 5 kHz wide SSB signal could have the fidelity of a 10 kHz wide AM signal if the audio processing is equally good.

Matt AE6HF


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 1:10 pm 
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Jon,

Your SX-16 and speaker looks very nice!

Matt covered most of your questions very well so I will just add a few additional points:

Different transmitters will have different mic requirements in terms of input impedance and output level but you can always use external matching transformers and/or a preamp as needed.

AM can sound very good with a properly adjusted transmitter and truly horrible when poorly set up, especially when using modern gear where AM is sort of an afterthought or poorly documented. For example if you follow the operator's manual for my Yaesu FT-1000D when operating AM it will sound truly horrible because the setup instructions will result in the ALC trying to prevent modulation. Generally AM using vintage gear will have fairly broad bandwidth and the operator will sound more natural. There are times when communication quality audio is needed such as when conditions are poor. I cringe when I read about people ripping the audio clipping circuitry out of Johnson Valiant and 500 transmitters because when set to zero there is no clipping but when conditions are bad a little clipping will make the audio much more readable. As a net control operator I do my best to pull weaker stations out of the noise and interference by using selectable sideband receivers with good internal filtering, external audio filtering, and low noise receive antennas but just a little more audio "punch" would often make a huge difference. The key is having the right audio setup for conditions.

For older transmitters you will have much better luck going to some of the "hamfests", see this to locate those in your area: http://www.arrl.org/hamfests/search and check this to see if there is an amateur radio club in your area: http://www.hamdepot.com/states/ar.asp If you find a club close enough join and let the members know you are interested in vintage gear and you may well uncover some.

There are definitely plenty of vintage gear enthusiasts in your part of the country. We recently lost one of the premier builders and authors, Bruce Vaughan NR5Q, who lived north of you in Springdale. He wrote many excellent articles over the years in Electric Radio along with at least one book. Several years ago I sent him a couple of the older QST on CD-ROMs for Christmas and he sent me an autographed copy of his book. I know that there are a number of active vintage gear enthusiasts in the area who met up with him at hamfests and other gatherings.

A lot of vintage gear operation occurs on 160, 80, and 40 although all of the high frequency bands are used and 10 meter AM is very popular when conditions are good. Six meter AM operation is also popular and I need to get my Johnson 6N2 Thunderbolt AM restored so I can join one of the groups about 100 miles away. AM operation has enjoyed a resurgence in popularity and in addition to vintage gear most modern gear is also capable of AM mode operation and there is also some specialty AM only solid state gear. CW operation with vintage and homebrew gear is also quite popular on 80 and 40 meters. There are a number of AM specific nets, I am one of the "net controllers" for the Midwest classic radio net which meets every Saturday morning on 3.885 and there are a number of other AM and CW specific nets and groups. I will be joining up with a regular morning group on 3.885 Mhz. using AM shortly. My Johnson Ranger/Desk Kilowatt and Johnson 500 shown below spend most of their time operating AM although operating CW with the Ranger and Desk KW is also fun, the Desk KW power supplies produces a nice sound when keying 1,000 watts on CW :)

Rodger WQ9E


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Desk.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Thu 23, 2013 10:47 pm 
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Wow, what a slick set up, that desk is something else, is there a radio built into it? I couldn't thank you both enough for teaching me about ham radio and answering my questions in such detail. Also If someone were to transmit on AM wouldn't the power draw be staggering, and would the excessive power draw harm a older transmitter, say 1950's and older.

Thanks

Jon


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2013 12:33 am 
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Could you guys tell me about a VFO, could you use one of these in place of that "Input crystal" that plugs into a transmitter. Does the VFO have set crystals inside the unit for specific frequencies to transmit on?

Jon


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2013 2:42 am 
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ketron281989 wrote:
Wow, what a slick set up, that desk is something else, is there a radio built into it? I couldn't thank you both enough for teaching me about ham radio and answering my questions in such detail. Also If someone were to transmit on AM wouldn't the power draw be staggering, and would the excessive power draw harm a older transmitter, say 1950's and older.

Thanks

Jon


Jon,

The Johnson Desk KW has a 1,000 watt RF amplifier and associated modulator for AM along with power supplies that are built into the desk. I have some inside photos I took during restoration that I will post later. It requires a transmitter to provide RF and audio drive and the Ranger was most commonly used. It will also operate SSB with an SSB exciter and when the Johnson Pacemaker was used for this the company also had available an audio amplifier to allow it to operate on high level AM.

The Desk KW was rated for 1,000 watts input on AM, CW, and SSB and maximum AC power draw was specified at 2,800 watts on AM. Although it could be wired for operation on 120 volts operation on 240 volts is highly desirable.

Power draw for a medium power AM transmitter really isn't that much and of course it isn't transmitting continuously. I guess it would offset the savings from a few CFL bulbs however. The majority of vintage AM transmitters are in the 100-200 watt range and they will only draw ~400-500 watts maximum in transmit. The majority of vintage AM transmitters were built to stand up to heavy usage. There was an article in Electric Radio several years ago about a Johnson Viking II being used as a broadcast transmitter at a missionary radio station and many of these vintage transmitters were used in contest operation in the 40s and 50s which required a design that would withstand a high duty cycle.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2013 3:03 am 
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ketron281989 wrote:
Could you guys tell me about a VFO, could you use one of these in place of that "Input crystal" that plugs into a transmitter. Does the VFO have set crystals inside the unit for specific frequencies to transmit on?

Jon


The VFO design for vintage transmitters uses a oscillator circuit with one or more fixed coils (depending upon covered frequency range) and a variable capacitor. It is basically a more stable and limited range version of the variable oscillator or HFO used in the front end of most vintage receivers. Many of the older VFO units have oscillators that cover 1.75-2.00 mhz. (covers 160 and the output is doubled for 80 meter coverage and sometimes quadrupled for 40 meter coverage) with a second range covering around 7.0 to around 7.45 (can cover 40 meters directly and then is doubled, tripled, and quadrupled for 20, 15, and 10 meters respectively). The 11 meter band long used for CB was originally an amateur band and a number of VFOs provide a separate range that can be multiplied up to cover 11 meters.

Sometimes a very minor modification is needed in a transmitter for VFO usage but that is generally covered in the manual. A majority of transmitters were ready for use with an external VFO. Commonly found are the Heathkit VF-1, Johnson VFO-122, and the Knightkit V-44 although there were a lot of different units made. The Meissner Signal Shifters are a high power VFO that could be used as a low power transmitter or used to excite a higher power transmitter. The Hallicrafters HA-5 often commands a high price because unlike most external VFOs the oscillator tunes a single range and a crystal controlled mixer stage is used to generate the final output frequency. This made it easier to achieve stability and a well calibrated dial. Some external VFOs require drawing power from the transmitter while others are self contained with their own built in power supply. A few people are starting to use modern DDS (direct digital synthesis) units to provide excellent stability and accuracy but I prefer using vintage accessories with vintage equipment.

The major drawbacks of a VFO compared to crystal is possible drift (frequency changes a bit over time just like receivers drift), calibration error (not a big deal and easy to check with an external receiver) and increased "chirp" sending Morse code depending upon the keying method used. None of these are a big deal with a good VFO.

There are a lot of good VFO units out there and I just listed some of the more common ones. The WRL-755 is an excellent unit as are others. If you find a good possibility ask for feedback on it here. There are a lot out there and some are quite old like the Millen Variarm VFO shown with the Utah transmitter and the later Millen VFO that I use with a Millen exciter and 500 watt RF deck is a lot more civilized.


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Millen Variarm and Utah transmitter.jpg
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Millen VFO.jpg
Millen VFO.jpg [ 134.97 KiB | Viewed 1422 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2013 3:10 pm 
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Jon,

FYI a few photos of the "workings" of the Johnson Desk Kilowatt. When I got it the unit had been disassembled many years earlier so that the panels could be painted and freshly silk screen printed and then the owner decided reassembly was beyond his capability. It passed to a second owner and remained in that state for several more years until I bought and restored it in 2005.

The first photo is of the mainframe after it slides out from the pedestal. The RF deck is in the top front and plugs in via a row of banana jacks/plugs. It contains two 4-400A tubes with a pair of cooling fans and the RF output network is a roller inductor coupled to a gear driven variable capacitor. Behind the RF deck on the top level is the modulator (pair of 810 tubes), modulation transformer, along with screen and bias supplies.

The lower level holds the plate transformer and choke along with control relays and regulators for the screen and bias supplies. It came with plug in solid state replacements for the 872A high voltage rectifiers. The relay which switches the 240 volt feed to the plate transformer primary had very badly pitted contacts and I decided to remove the no longer used rectifier filament transformer and use that spot and mounting holes for a pair of very reliable solid state relays and a heat sink to replace the original plate relay. These SS relays turn on at the zero crossing point and coupled with inrush current limiters they create a soft start for the plate transformer. There are a total of 4 fans in the Desk KW, two in the RF module and then 2 more in the pedestal and the relay heat sink is located in the cooling air flow from the lower intake fan.

The final photo is the replacement roller guide system I made for the pedestal to prevent the dreaded spread rail syndrome which causes the mainframe to drop to the bottom of the pedestal making removal impossible without cutting into the metal pedestal.

In the time I have used the Desk KW the only failures have been one pedestal cooling fan and one terminal connector. It uses the same cooling fans as many of the other Johnson products and these are subject to failure from the shorted motor windings. It is an interesting experience when one of these goes up in smoke because you cannot just pick up a several hundred pound piece of equipment and move it outside until the smoke stops. I decided to replace both pedestal fans at that point using modern fans which are both quieter and move more air and the new fan makes it easy to mount an intake air filter which is far easier to clean than the grid compartment fan on the RF deck.

Rodger WQ9E


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Desk KW module.JPG
Desk KW module.JPG [ 203.36 KiB | Viewed 1390 times ]
Roller guides.jpg
Roller guides.jpg [ 46.48 KiB | Viewed 1390 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Ham Plug in Crystals for Antique transmitters
PostPosted: May Sat 25, 2013 12:33 am 
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Rodger,

That KW desk is really something else, I have never seen anything like it. That Utah is really cool, I love the 30's style Ham gear. Do you usually run all your antique gear when getting on the air? And could you tell me more about drift, and would you correct it by having to tune back to the frequency you are using?

At Work today I met a fellow employee who used to be a electrician, he asked if I had any electrical experience and I told him I enjoy antique tube radio and plan on getting into Ham radio as we speak. He gave me a phone number of one of his friends who is into Ham radio. I talked with this guy, Max, and he told me about the local Ham radio club that meets the 3rd Saturday of each month. He also mentioned about taking the Technicians test and General Class test after.

I do look forward to getting these test taken care of and cant wait to get on the air.

What does a Technicians licence allow me to do? From what I hear it only allows you to operate on 10 meters.

Thanks

Jon


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