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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Sun 15, 2013 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2244
Location: Monroe, NC 28112 USA
Thanks for posting the link to the article, I'll read it later after I figure out why my router keeps loosing its link to my ISP every time I close a browser.

I have one in my collection just like the one Alan posted here... and also NOS.

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Sun 15, 2013 8:10 pm 
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Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
I'd forgotten that Mallory bought Elkon in 1925; I was thinking closer to 1930.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 16, 2013 5:50 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1002
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA
Rick, I have a Timmons with the following info printed on it:

TIMMONS BLIM B-POWER SUPPLY MODEL 4 USING TYPE PR RECTIFIER TUBE 5 VOLT 1 AMP 15 WATTS
TIMMONS RADIO PRODUCTS CORPORATION
PHILADELPHIA
PAT. MAY 15, 1923

The tube I found in it was unmarked except for a P on the bottom, in the middle of the bakelite base, filament is open. The base is a mottled red and black mix that I have never seen before.
I have seen references to Timmons B-Liminators, R and PR rectifiers, but never found one.

Some time back I bought a battery eliminator of sorts, I wasn't interested except for the tube. It had a URECO 2-L in it, that I have never found any info on.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 16, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
Hi Tubemaster,

"Thanks" for sharing your information with us. Thru my research, I have found that Timmons Radio Products Corporation (Germantown Pa.) had produced several different version models of its original patented May 15, 1923 "B-Liminator" Battery Eliminator device.

Could you please upload a photo of your Timmons Power Supply unit and also the rectifier tube that it uses ?

Thanks Rick


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 16, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 25381
Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
"May 15, 1923" sounds suspiciously like the first Lowell & Dunmore patent (1,455,141) which showed a triode with grid and plate tied together as a rectifier. You can read about Lowell and Dunmore in vol.3 of the AWA Review. If that's so, then Timmons was simply a licensee, and could have built their eliminator any time. Without dated advertising there's no way to know.

Dubilier and the Super-Ducon was covered in that paper too.
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Last edited by Alan Douglas on Dec Mon 16, 2013 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 16, 2013 3:16 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
Hi Alan,

"Thanks" for your comments and I also agree with fact that dated materials are important in determining its history.

You had also made an earlier comment that you think that the Dubilier Super-Ducon was the first "B" Battery Eliminator to be produced in 1924 ?? What is the "earliest" dated advertisement (not a company introduction or announcement) that you have for this particular item, which actually shows a photo of this device and its selling price. And could you upload this dated advertisement for anyone to see ?

Thanks Rick


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 16, 2013 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Feb Mon 25, 2013 3:39 am
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Location: Truth or Consequences, NM
https://www.google.com/patents/US1455141?dq=US1455141&hl=en&sa=X&ei=exOvUu_XA4_9oAStzICoDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA

Interesting will have to look at some other written material on the rectifiers prior to this. Seems the most novel, may be the multiple windings on the transformer.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Tue 17, 2013 1:16 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
Using my references in the AWA Review article, it was advertised beginning in May 1924 but probably none were sold until November. The August 1924 Radio Broadcast has a photo of Houck (who developed it) and Dubilier demonstrating one to a group of newspaper radio editors.

I don't see any ad in Radio Broadcast; Dubilier did run ads every month in Radio News but not for the eliminator in any of the 1924 issues. At this point I don't remember where I found the 1924 ads.

From some other notes: there was an introductory notice in Popular Radio in September 1924 and an actual ad in the NY Herald-Tribune on November 23, 1924 p.10. There was an ad in Wireless Age in December 1924 p.62.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Tue 17, 2013 10:13 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1007
Location: Armadale, WESTERN AUSTRALIA.
Leigh wrote:
B batteries were not rechargeable.
That was the whole reason for B Battery Eliminators.


Wrong.

Some B batteries were rechargeable.....2V lead-acid cells were wired in series to achieve desired B+ voltage.

I own one of the following;

http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/general_el ... eries.html


Last edited by Ron Pond on Feb Sat 01, 2014 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Thu 19, 2013 3:44 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA
I can't figure out how to deal with digital cameras and photos, but I found the tube that came with my Timmons battery eliminator. It has some scratches on the base, nothing that seems to be a number, and no marks on the glass. It does have the name PERRYMAN on the bottom, in the center. I do not know whether this tube is the original that came with the unit. I wonder if type PR could have been used to indicate Perryman Rectifier?
I sent a PM to Rick.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Fri 27, 2013 3:55 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
Alan Douglas wrote:
Using my references in the AWA Review article, it was advertised beginning in May 1924 but probably none were sold until November. The August 1924 Radio Broadcast has a photo of Houck (who developed it) and Dubilier demonstrating one to a group of newspaper radio editors.

I don't see any ad in Radio Broadcast; Dubilier did run ads every month in Radio News but not for the eliminator in any of the 1924 issues. At this point I don't remember where I found the 1924 ads.

From some other notes: there was an introductory notice in Popular Radio in September 1924 and an actual ad in the NY Herald-Tribune on November 23, 1924 p.10. There was an ad in Wireless Age in December 1924 p.62.

Hi Alan,

I have read your above reply on Dubilier's Super-Ducon advertisements in 1924, and I think I have found the May 1924 information that you were referring to ? However, this was not an actually advertisement; instead it was an "Introductory Product Development Announcement" that was made by Dubilier Condenser and Radio Corp., like the one that you also mentioned being found in the 1924 September issue of Popular Radio. I have attached this May 1924 announcement below, and you will also notice that on its announcement, its states " Further details as to various models and prices will be announced at a later date ". And the reason why Dubilier had made that statement, is the fact that it was not finished with its product development and testing, or it was not ready to sell it to the retail market place yet.

Image

Image

I had also taken your suggestion, by researching and looking thru the past issues of "Radio In The Home". And I had also looked thru all the 1924 issues and did not find any Dubilier advertisements on its Super-Ducon. Although, Dubilier was a big advertiser of this particular magazine, and would have large advertisements on a monthly basis of its other products. In fact, I had looked thru other 1924 magazine and newspaper issues, and have never found any Dubilier advertisements on its Super-Ducon, showing its actual product and its pricing.

Finally, according to my research, I have found several newspaper reports in late December of 1924, that Dubilier was having problems with the manufacturing agreement rights of its Super-Ducon ?? And the earliest actual advertisement that I found of Dubilier's Super-Ducon, was in early 1925. But, I have noticed that you had also mentioned seeing an "actual ad" in the NY Herald-Tribune on November 23, 1924 p.10 and also in the Wireless Age in December 1924 p.62. Could you please upload these advertisements, which shows its actual product and its pricing, for again, I have never seen an actual Super-Ducon advertisement of its product and pricing (not introductory product announcement) in 1924.

Below is the "earliest" advertisement (Feb. 15, 1925) that I have found, which also shows the Super-Ducon and its model, which is type 800, and also its price of $47.50. Interesting, that you will also noticed in this advertisement, that Dubilier used the wording "Ready" and also "It is now perfected ..."

Image

Thanks again for all your valuable information -Rick


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Fri 27, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 25381
Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
Attachment:
Wireless Age Dec.1924.jpg
Wireless Age Dec.1924.jpg [ 85.15 KiB | Viewed 4709 times ]
The newspaper ad would take some digging since they're stored flat in another location (Wireless Age is right on the library shelf). I can do
it, but it's probably the same ad. Magazines usually appeared on their cover date (Radio News was an exception) so the ad would have been
prepared in November.

That's a significant ad you found since it does mention that the tube (UV196 made by Westinghouse) was finally available. It's a fair assumption
then, that the Super-Ducon was not actually shipped until 1925.

edit: I got curious and dug it out. This shop claimed to have them, but no prices were listed.
Attachment:
NY Herald Tribune 11-23-24.jpg
NY Herald Tribune 11-23-24.jpg [ 75.48 KiB | Viewed 4699 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Sat 28, 2013 6:24 am 
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Posts: 2947
Location: Thornhill, Ontario, Canada
Rick Hirsh wrote:
Hello Everyone, (snip)
Thru my research, I believe that the Timmons B-Liminator was the "very first" "B" Battery Eliminator to be developed and produced. I found an original Timmons Radio Products Corporation (Germantown PA.) sales brochure for its "B-Liminator" and it has a patent date of "May 15, 1923" on the front cover. This would precede Dubilier's Super-Ducon "B" Battery Eliminator that was first announced in 1924, and which I found in the July issue of The Wireless Age.
(snip)
Thanks Rick

$28.50 in 1923 would be about $380 today (by Inflation calculator http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi ).
Very expensive!
Cheers,
Roger

_________________
Roger Jones,
Thornhill, Ontario
Ontario Vintage Radio Assoc. http://www.ovra.ca


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Sun 29, 2013 2:03 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1002
Location: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA
Thanks, everyone, for the great discussion! I just had a thought--could the delay have been caused over patent licensing rights for the tube rectifier, and the solution was the choice of the unique dual-filament UV-196, which was troublesome enough to switch to the cold-cathode Raytheon tubes?
I don't have the resources to try digging up the answer, though.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Sun 29, 2013 2:55 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 25381
Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
I think the delay was designing and producing the tubes, and perhaps coordinating with RCA. And at first the RCA people didn't want anything to do with B eliminators, but later changed their minds. That's in the 1929 GE Tube History. Unfortunately since it's the GE history they say nothing about Westinghouse-designed tubes.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Sun 29, 2013 5:54 am 
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Location: Cold Spring Kentucky USA
Rick, you need a copy of volume 17 (2004) edition of the Antique wireless association article I wrote on Kodel and Automatic Electrical Devices Company. It has their history starting in 1912. The homcharger was adapted into a b battery chargrer, and Clarence Ogden also developed numerous eliminators, The WLS model is just Sears nameplate on the Kodel chargers and eliminators. The same chargers and eliminators were also sold to many other jobbers who would have Kodel place their nametag on them and sell them. I also have a website, John Lemings Kodel Radio History, that includes alot of the information, but my site is under construction so I am adding info and photos all of the time. Kodel also produced a magazine called Socket Power News. The dry plates that you refer to were patented by the Liebel Fleishman Company here in Cincinnati and Ogden bought the rights to it, naming it "Kuprox" He paid Two Hundred and fifty thousabnd dollars for the patent and its rights in 1927. He also had a rectifier called "Silite" I have one of his chargers from 1913, and I will look for the date of his first B battery eliminator, but I believe it was in 1923. Im very bad with links, so I cant add the link to my website here, but if you google for it you will find it. I have the editions of socket power news, and I dont think they have ever been found anywhere else. I dont think copies exist anymore. I would like to get mine copied and available on a CD sometime.

_________________
Jon Leming (Erin)

"55 KRC" - Cincinnati's WKRC (Kodel Radio Corporation)


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Sun 29, 2013 6:01 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 431
Location: Cold Spring Kentucky USA
Sorry for the double here, but the date in my reply of 1912, is wrong, I meant to put 1917 - the date is 1917.

_________________
Jon Leming (Erin)

"55 KRC" - Cincinnati's WKRC (Kodel Radio Corporation)


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Sun 29, 2013 7:11 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 431
Location: Cold Spring Kentucky USA
Rick, here is an ad for Kuprox. I have most all of these machines, so I will get photos and post them on my website over the next few days. I also have most of the homcharger eliminators and the other Transifiers that kodel made.


Attachments:
kodel_opt.jpg
kodel_opt.jpg [ 36.85 KiB | Viewed 4652 times ]

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Jon Leming (Erin)

"55 KRC" - Cincinnati's WKRC (Kodel Radio Corporation)
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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 30, 2013 1:27 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 431
Location: Cold Spring Kentucky USA
here are a few of my Kodel chargers and eliminators The green homcharger is an elipse model made to be marketed for x-mas, the green and gold colors are correct, there is an advertizemet for this charger stating that it was being produced in green and gold for x-mas. The open bulb type is a "crescent" The two large eliminators are Kuprox and the small one is of the tube type. The massive boxes were stamped painted and assembled by Kodels sister Company, Tri-State machine Co, here in Cincinnati. The latches were made for kodel by United Metal Stamping Co, also a radio manufacturer here


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kodel1_opt.jpg
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kodel2_opt.jpg
kodel2_opt.jpg [ 73.33 KiB | Viewed 4641 times ]

_________________
Jon Leming (Erin)

"55 KRC" - Cincinnati's WKRC (Kodel Radio Corporation)
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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 30, 2013 4:29 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
Hi Erin,

"Thanks" for adding all of your valuable information on the Kodel Radio battery chargers and eliminators. I also noticed that you had made a comment, that you thought that Clarence Ogden's (Automatic Electrical Devices) first "B" battery eliminator was made in 1923 ? Do you mean he was experimenting and testing one or actually producing them for the the retail market place, during that specific time period ?

Do you have any documentation or reference data information, that supports your claim ?

Thanks Rick


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