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 Post subject: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 10:15 pm 
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Location: Albany, NY
I've been selling off on the large auction site a few Western Electric tubes that I've accrued in order to pay for a few expenses. The tube tester I currently have does not have provisions for testing these types of tubes and so I decided at the very least I should test them for filament continuity which I did using my DVM on its diode setting. In my listing I stated that "The tube has been tested for continuity which it has". Given that I did not have the ability to test it for emission I did not state that I had done so nor did I provide any results or assumptions. I provided a physical assessment of the tube and that I had tested the tube for continuity and that was it.

A buyer purchases the tube, I ship it and it arrives safely at the destination. About a week later the buyer messages me stating that they have tested the tube and that it isn't any good because of the emission being low. I stated to the buyer that I had only tested the tube for filament continuity and not emission. I've also written to them asking what methods did they use to determine the emission was low but have yet to hear back. I had not made any statements about testing for emission nor had I provided results or provided any guarantees about the function of the tubes as I do not have the facilities to do so.

The buyer responds stating that then I should have stated in the auction the following:

"The tube has been tested for filament continuity which it has."

Versus my original listing of:

"The tube has been tested for continuity which it has."

The buyer states that because I had said the tube had been tested for continuity and not "filament continuity" it implies that I had tested the tube for filament continuity and emission.

While I agree that the inclusion of the word "filament" would have added clarity I feel that there is some extrapolation with assuming that "tube continuity" means "tube filament and emission" considering how no mention of emission testing nor emission testing results were provided in the listing. At least to me the word "continuity" in this sense means "are the elements of the tube intact?" which they are.

I'm also perplexed that the buyer, if they were unsure about my description, did not message me while the auction was still running and ask for clarification.

I'm on the fence. I listed the auction as "no returns or refunds accepted" which was clearly stated in the auction description and not just in the item details section. While I feel that the inclusion of the word "filament" after the word "continuity" would have added clarity I do not agree that one would go so far as assuming that the tube had also been tested for emission unless explicitly stated. Also, if one tested for emission you would expect results to be provided in the auction listing. I feel like the buyer is trying to read too far into the description, find an exception and make a connection that doesn't exist.

Am I completely off base here?


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 10:28 pm 
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If I was selling an untested tube I would think of the angles that could cause me grief and even make a statement to the effect that the function of the tube and emission is unknown and the tubes are being sold as-is and as display tubes. IF you say display tube in the title it may scare off people that assume damage or confirmed duds who are just scanning the listings. You can describe what you know and don't know in the text but You have to provide yourself with a legal sounding specific wording. Not for deception but to allow yourself an ironclad defense against being accused of deception. I might state the good filament, as-is untested in the title but not say something that implies that they are known total dud tubes. I always look over my listings after the PREVIEW. I step back and often add or remove something. But even at that, some people may demand a refund regardless of your descriptions and hopefully, good clear photos. Ebay might side with them and they might flame you in feedback. If you only ever have one bad feedback that one will attract attention and you are allowed to post a rebuttal in the same feedback, as in "the listing clearly stated/showed...." instead of "this buyer is an idiot..."
" The buyer nitpicking your continuity statement is looking for his angle to get money back but so lesson learned, about being very specific for next time.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 10:46 pm 
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Location: DFW Texas
If I had read the description I would have assumed that you only tested the filament. But buyers often read what they want especially if the buy wasn't a "hidden treasure".

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 10:52 pm 
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Dennis H. wrote:
If I had read the description I would have assumed that you only tested the filament. But buyers often read what they want especially if the buy wasn't a "hidden treasure".

And I think this buyer has "maybe" tested the tube and it is just fine and is looking for a refund. I would not be in a hurry to refund any money. For that matter, I would want the tube back if this buyer wants "compensation"...

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 11:06 pm 
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Location: ZIP 23831 South of Richmond, VA 25 miles down the pike.
He has low emission. So filament must have continuity, right? I think your statement was adequate. However he may be after a refund. He probably takes chances with untested tubes with filament continuity and does he then complain about them with low emission? But you might ought to spell it out more clearly about not responsible if tube fails testing, etc. Refund, block him and move on.

Bill J.


Last edited by NumberMaj 1 on May Wed 15, 2019 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 11:17 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Pasadena CA USA
In my opinion, since you asked, I think you not only should have stated that you tested the tube for FILIMENT continuity only, but should have stated that you do not know anything else about the condition of the tube. I would give the man a refund.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Location: Long Beach, CA USA
I don't see how continuity implies anything about emission, but the large auction site may compel you to refund.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 11:43 pm 
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928GTS wrote: I listed the auction as "no returns or refunds accepted" which was clearly stated in the auction description and not just in the item details section.

All of the above ... it don't mean Jack!
ebay calls the shots. They write the rules, not you.

ebay will always side with a disgruntled buyer. Your "no returns or refunds accepted" statement leaves you wide open to abuse.

How long have you been selling on ebay?
Don't you read the Online Auctions and Sales Forum here at arf?

You must always accept returns.
RETURNS ACCEPTED - BUYER PAYS RETURN SHIPPING.


Be done with this guy. Refund him and ask for your tube back.
You might be lucky and actually receive it... but, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Greg.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 11:47 pm 
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J. Hill wrote:
In my opinion, since you asked, I think you not only should have stated that you tested the tube for FILIMENT continuity only, but should have stated that you do not know anything else about the condition of the tube. I would give the man a refund.

I'd agree. The first thing that hit me while reading your OP was that you didn't specify filament continuity only. If he asks for a refund I think he deserves it, but only if he asks for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Tue 14, 2019 11:52 pm 
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Ebay does indeed call the shots. I purchased a GSM phone that turned out to be a CDMA. The seller had the no return caveat though the description was incorrect. I contacted Ebay as their resolution instructed. I got my refund and they didn't want the phone back. If it were buyers' regret I would have taken no action.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 12:07 am 
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Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
My take is that yes, Ebay calls the shots.

But I think your description was adequate, although an added "not tested nor guaranteed for emission" would probably have been a bit clearer.

That said, this buyer sounds like a scammer. As I've never dealt with Ebay this way, are you required to refund him and then wait for your merchandise back or does Ebay hold the refund until you receive the tube back?

Not the first horror story with Ebay .... which is what makes our forum so much easier to deal with. At least any scammers here are quickly isolated, identified, and avoided. "the bay" is just too populated.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 12:35 am 
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928GTS wrote:

The buyer responds stating that then I should have stated in the auction the following:

"The tube has been tested for filament continuity which it has."

Versus my original listing of:

"The tube has been tested for continuity which it has."


Splitting hairs. Who in the heck buys Western Electric tubes based on "tube continuity"? If your terminology was so flawed then what is this guy's excuse in buying the tube in the first place? He must have read your description. Did he determine your wording was flawed before or after he won the auction? Sounds like someone who decided to take a chance on your tube only to be disappointed in it's results and now want's to spin your description against you in order to get his money back. There's a lot of scumbags in the audiophile community and I think you just sold a tube to one of them. FIGHT THIS GUY.

What's this buyer's feedback rating and history? Maybe he's pulled this scam on others.

How about posting a link to the auction?

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 1:21 am 
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Get the tube returned and end it all with a refund. :) Life goes on with EBay.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 2:43 am 
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hoffies2 wrote:
Get the tube returned and end it all with a refund. :) Life goes on with EBay.


... and pray for that the tube you'll receive back will be actually the one you have sended to the buyer and has not been abused/damaged by improper use. And btw if you have checked the "does not accept returns" option in the selling listing the buyer is under no obligation to return the item (he may keep it) but will nevertheless receive a full refund (including shipping charges,at your expense). A small detail too often misunderstood or ignored by many sellers.

eBay set the rules, NOT YOU ! (read and repeat three times)

The fact is that whatever your item description is there is no longer any safe way selling on eBay without accepting the risk of being scammed by unscrupulous buyers helped by eBay's "buyer's allways right" policies. And remember, according to the same eBay's/paypal policies you're supposed to give 180 days (yes, that's 6 months !) warranty on the items you're selling. That means that during this 6 months period the buyer can open a NAD dispute anytime and ask for a full refund which will be granted by eBay 90% of the time. Remember that people working at eBay's litigation department are neither tube experts or electronic engineers and have never heard about technical terms like "filament continuity or emission". There's no doubt they'll side with the buyer in such situations.

Antique W.E tubes are mainly bought by audiophiles which are know to be the most fussy and litigation prone buyers you'll ever meet. There's is a very high risk factor dealing with these people on eBay.

You might try to limit the risks by using a description like (use CAPITAL BOLD letters): " UNTESTED/DEFECTIVE TUBE SOLD FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY" even if you know your tube is perfectly good. Of course you'll attract less bidders and the final selling price will be significantly lower. The shorter the wording the better, as any single word or sentence in your description can be used against you later.

Another (wiser) option would be to stop selling on eBay ...


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 4:50 am 
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Tubologic wrote:


You might try to limit the risks by using a description like (use CAPITAL BOLD letters): " UNTESTED/DEFECTIVE TUBE SOLD FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY" even if you know your tube is perfectly good. Of course you'll attract less bidders and the final selling price will be significantly lower.

There's always a trade-off; trying to lure the most bidders and best knockdown price using a vague description, and being more liable for a NAD complaint, as opposed to writing a very specific one with fewer bidders, lower price, & less chance of a return request.

I wouldn't use the term, "defective", unless he knows it is; "untested beyond establishing filament continuity" would be accurate and truthful. Then if a buyer claimed "emissions tested too low", the seller would have a defense, although with eBay that might not be good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 5:13 am 
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Joined: Nov Thu 04, 2010 5:49 am
Posts: 577
Location: Albany, NY
So far the only proof that the buyer has given me that the tube has low emission is a photo of the tube showing it in circuit. He claims that because there is a blue glow emanating from the center of the tube that the tube is nearing the end of its life. I've never heard anything about this before. I asked the buyer that if he could send me a photo of the tube being put under test on his tube tester with detail being given to the test settings on the tester as well as the meter showing the weak emission level that I would either refund or accept his return. We'll see what happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 2:20 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 24, 2013 11:50 pm
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Location: Bristol, Rhode Island
I'll add on here, though others have made the point probably better than I can.
I agree with the others who stated more info was necessary. The thing about ebay is, you have to spell out EVERYTHING, the good and the bad and the unknown, to try to counter claims and make sure you are covered. Not including info about emissions, even if you had no way to test for it, could be seen as deceptive even if it's not. Best policy is to disclose everything you know about an item in the description. Stating something like "I do not warrant the quality or usability of this tube, as it has not been tested for overall performance, only to verify filament has continuity" would probably have saved you a lot of grief.
Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 2:34 pm 
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Joined: Feb Thu 28, 2019 7:48 pm
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Location: Lawrenceville, Illinois 62439
You can't fight city hall. Or ebay.
I would offer to refund him, once you receive the tube back. You will have to pay return shipping (if he opens a case, ebay will send him a label which will be billed to you), but, in case he is a scammer, he will decide to not return it. He has (I think) 5 days after opening a case to return it, after that, case closed, you keep your money.
Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Location: Pasadena CA USA
Seems like you hit a nerve with the original post! I would not be too quick to call anyone any nasty names. It seems that he wanted a working tube and you did not know if the tube was good or not. Usually when people purchase items, whether from an internet auction, an on line want ad, or the local retail store they expect it to operate for its intended purpose. We can see the problem here. You were a bit less clear in your description than you could have been and he jumped to an unwarranted conclusion. Without further information, I don't see any bad guys here, just a misunderstanding.


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 Post subject: Re: Opinions requested regarding auction return
PostPosted: May Wed 15, 2019 10:24 pm 
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Way to complicated. If you sell tubes buy a tester that tests for everything. Problem solved. People don't read and I would possibly make the same assumption as the buyer.


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