Forums :: NEW! Web Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently May Sun 16, 2021 12:24 pm


All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Wed 17, 2021 5:51 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
Everything else is there except the maximum clock frequency. I'm designing a SSB transceiver with four lm386 and two cd4053 in the exciter section.

What's the maximum clock frequency of CD4053? Can anybody help and share from experience please. Does it work at 7MHz?

Please help!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Wed 17, 2021 7:58 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Fri 06, 2012 8:47 pm
Posts: 7117
Dare4444 wrote:
What's the maximum clock frequency of CD4053?
Since the CD4053 is an analog multiplexer, it doesn't actually have a clock. The analog switches are rated for 30 MHz.

Curtis Eickerman

_________________
http://curtiseickerman.weebly.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Wed 17, 2021 8:09 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
Thanks for your reply. I'm trying to come up with an easy to build ssb transceiver with common parts. CD4053 is widely available all over the world. 74HC4053 the high speed version is only available from mouser india digikey india and few others. Attaching the schematic of product detector and modulator stage. One spdt is 4mhz oscillator and it's feeding another spdt (single balanced mixer).

Entire design is on paper. I've been dealing with few health issues. Do you think this would work?


Last edited by Dare4444 on Feb Wed 17, 2021 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Wed 17, 2021 10:04 pm 
Member

Joined: Jun Sun 15, 2014 5:37 pm
Posts: 930
Location: Montreal, Quebec
But can they be switched that fast?

The issue I remember was that some analog switches were lossy even in the on position. That was at audio, but likely is a concern at radio.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Wed 17, 2021 10:29 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
mblack wrote:
But can they be switched that fast?

The issue I remember was that some analog switches were lossy even in the on position. That was at audio, but likely is a concern at radio.


74HC series are faster but only selected stores keep them. CD4053 is as common as housefly !

CD4066 darasheet says 8MHz max clock frequency. CD4053 must be similar

Lossy means Ron resistance. Per SPDT it’s 150ohm or less. Gain in amp stages make up for the losses.


Last edited by Dare4444 on Feb Wed 17, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Wed 17, 2021 10:32 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
I’ll upload an old article. The author used cd4066 to successfully generate 4MHz SSB. Of course a crystal ladder filter was there too


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Thu 18, 2021 6:26 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 4623
Location: Perrysburg, OH, 43551 U.S.A.
According to the Texas Instruments data sheet:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4053b.pdf?ts=1613587625890&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.ti.com%252Fproduct%252FCD4053B
The address to signal out (channels on or off) can be anywhere from 120ns to 450ns (typical) and as much as 240ns to 720ns (maximum) depending on the supply voltage. See the bottom of page 7. I would say that you'd want to use a 15 volt supply voltage to have any hope of making the circuit work at 4MHz.

The CD74HC4053 would definitely work:
https://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/cd74hc4053

John

_________________
“Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
― R. A. Heinlein


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Thu 18, 2021 6:37 am 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
The schematic.

CD4066 should work better. Datasheet gives a typical frequency of 8MHz at 12V.


Attachments:
IMG_20210217_173620.jpg
IMG_20210217_173620.jpg [ 431.12 KiB | Viewed 1077 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Thu 18, 2021 6:47 am 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
Very old article.. from 1988... 4.194MHz is easily handled by the CD4066. It is fed from an audio transformer


Attachments:
IMG_20210218_111441.png
IMG_20210218_111441.png [ 114.9 KiB | Viewed 1074 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Thu 18, 2021 10:03 am 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
OldWireBender wrote:
According to the Texas Instruments data sheet:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd4053b.pdf?ts=1613587625890&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.ti.com%252Fproduct%252FCD4053B
The address to signal out (channels on or off) can be anywhere from 120ns to 450ns (typical) and as much as 240ns to 720ns (maximum) depending on the supply voltage. See the bottom of page 7. I would say that you'd want to use a 15 volt supply voltage to have any hope of making the circuit work at 4MHz.

The CD74HC4053 would definitely work:
https://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/cd74hc4053

John


Thank you, John. CD4066 looks much better. Adding inverter gates to drive 4066 will increase parts count but performance is going to be excellent.


Attachments:
Screenshot_2021-02-18-14-30-17-141_com.google.android.apps.docs.png
Screenshot_2021-02-18-14-30-17-141_com.google.android.apps.docs.png [ 53.83 KiB | Viewed 1061 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Fri 19, 2021 5:16 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Fri 02, 2009 11:32 pm
Posts: 724
Location: Equinunk PA 18417
CD4066 is common as dirt and a decent switch if you can tolerate its high on resistance. Is crosstalk or capacitance feed-through an issue? There are lots and lots of analog switches. DG201-202 are pretty decent and should work well at 4mHz. I'm sure there are others.

_________________
-Richard


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Fri 19, 2021 6:27 am 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
Hi Richard,

CD4066 is better, reliable, and has channel isolation of -50dB which is good.
I've redesigned the circuit with 4066 and three of them would be required. I'm trying to draw the BFO around the two remaining switches so I don't have to use an inverter IC like 74HC04 to drive the CD4066 SBM mixer. To overcome losses I’ll see what I can do. I think Ron is 150ohms at 12V. Paralleling 3 would give me 50ohm. Here’s the rough schematic. Gain of LM386 is set to 20. The distortion and noise would be low enough for cascaded LM386 audio amplifier. A transistor preamp has also been added increasing the audio stage gain to 85dB (little excessive? )


Attachments:
8A85FB72-BE14-4AC0-8ED7-53769B14D653.jpeg
8A85FB72-BE14-4AC0-8ED7-53769B14D653.jpeg [ 456.1 KiB | Viewed 1023 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Sat 20, 2021 4:11 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Fri 02, 2009 11:32 pm
Posts: 724
Location: Equinunk PA 18417
Have you considered MC1496? I'm not an expert here and may actually reveal my lack of knowledge, but it seems tailor made to do what you want, check out figure 28 in this datasheet:
https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC1496-D.PDF

Do you really need so much audio gain, 85db? That would amplify a 1/2 millivolt signal to 10 volts, which would be crazy loud if it weren't more than the speaker's LM386 can deliver. A microphone close to your mouth would need only half that, I would guess depending on microphone and exciter needs. Noise and audio instability could be a concern with so much gain. Looks like a fun project, though. SSB walkie talkie!

_________________
-Richard


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Sat 20, 2021 6:01 am 
Member

Joined: Jun Sun 15, 2014 5:37 pm
Posts: 930
Location: Montreal, Quebec
CMOS switches as balanced mixers aren't a new thing, and they tend to emulate more traditional balanced mixers.

They have actually seen a lot if use in high end design.

Nowadays, CMOS switches are more available (is the 1496 still in production?) and likely cheaper than an analog mixwr.

For a lot of things your oscillator is putting out a square wave, so feeding switches is no problem.

And yes, I cringe at seeing a 386 being used in place of opamps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Sat 20, 2021 12:02 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
I’ll take the suggestions and lower gain. LM386 is used for simplicity. Powering them with 6Vcc and 1K load would keep distortion at 0.2% . A transistor phase splitter then feeds the SBM.

Yes I’m aware of MC1496 but it’s not easily available. My design goals were compact IC design and eliminating toroids.


Last edited by Dare4444 on Feb Sat 20, 2021 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Sat 20, 2021 1:24 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
Here comes another design, is it too simple to work? The front end has a diode DBM.

I think I'm trying to make a bidirectional amplifier with J310 fets. With the gate grounded, it's common to both drain and source and signals should flow either way.
Is there any gain when drain (To gnd or -) and source (To +) are connected to opposite supply rails?

A third J310 RF preamp (12ma) may be placed before the DBM for added sensitivity.

Mic and speaker are connected to the product detector.

Source resistors are missing in J310 amps.


Attachments:
IMG_20210220_113029.jpg
IMG_20210220_113029.jpg [ 714.5 KiB | Viewed 950 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Sat 20, 2021 4:31 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Fri 02, 2009 11:32 pm
Posts: 724
Location: Equinunk PA 18417
Wow I like your creativity but I don't see how this can work effectively in both signal directions. You may be way ahead of me but what I see is, for instance, once you've set bias to have gain in one direction, if you switch supply polarity, the device is suddenly at the opposite polarity (relative to the grounded gate). You've just switched the fet off for the most part. It may turn on briefly for any brief signal peaks that exceed the source voltage but not what I think you intend. What am I missing?

MC1496 surface mount variants are still in production. I'm not sure about the status of DIP variants but they appear easy to find here from surplus/overstock vendors.

_________________
-Richard


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Sat 20, 2021 5:24 pm 
Member

Joined: Mar Thu 01, 2018 1:30 am
Posts: 514
You got a valid point Richard. Maybe someone else has done it too. I'll test it out on Spice if it has a model for J310. My feeling is both the coils have to be tuned at IF for better amplification. See this attachment this circuit is better. Two 1.3V zener diodes added for switching. It's the lowest voltage zener I could find. Only few online sites carry them.


Attachments:
IMG_20210220_214844.jpg
IMG_20210220_214844.jpg [ 383.62 KiB | Viewed 938 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Sun 21, 2021 1:03 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 7587
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Just watch out for the operating voltage between the 74HC and the CD.types. They are not readily interchangeable. The 74HC will only work up to 5 volt inputs whereas the CD type should work up to around 15 volt inputs.

I found this out earlier today when trying to sub a 74HC 4051 for a CD4051 ina temperature controller. The 74HC would not do the multiplexing with the 15 volt supply that was being supplied.

_________________
Jim
KE8GMW
---------------------
I have flying monkeys and I know how to use them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Help needed CD4053 specs
PostPosted: Feb Sun 21, 2021 2:28 am 
Member

Joined: Jun Sun 15, 2014 5:37 pm
Posts: 930
Location: Montreal, Quebec
An early homemade transistor SSB transceiver just arranged things right.

A common filter and IF strip just going one way.

At one end, it was fed from a mixer, or balanced modulator, depending on receive or transmit.

At the other end of the IF strip, a balance.d diode mixer that worked as a product detector on receive, or a mixer on transmit.

It made everything very simple, rather than trying to make each stage work in two directions.But it's easy because of it being single conversion. The SBE-33 is tge classic example of bilateral stages, and maybe the ancestor of later work, but I'm not sure it really simplified anything.


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 82 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  


































Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB