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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sat 07, 2018 10:17 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
The amount of power is irrelevant. Without NFB it's basically (push pull) 'radio' quality.

This amp has very little feedback and very low feedback can actually make an amp sound worse. That doesn't mean "no feedback" is 'Hi-Fi'. It means there's not enough negative feedback to get to 'Hi-Fi'. And then there's the fact of clipping and the opamps being incapable of fully driving the 6V6. While that might seem unrelated clipping introduces a bunch a higher order harmonics and the low feedback makes them worse.

The very low feedback is why having the OPT secondary just made the amp sound sort of bad. If it had anything close to that needed for 'Hi-Fi' it would have squealed like a banshee with reversed feedback.

When I redesigned the opamp section I kept it with the same opamp feedback, since Peter thinks it's 'super duper', but it should probably have the opamp feedback lowered and the extra gain go to global feedback where it could do some good.
Flip, do you suggest a circuit change to get this amp closer to hi-fi?
I have some suggestions but can't simulated them fully for a myriad of reasons so it's sort of a hunt and peck thing, meaning you'd have to try, measure the feedback, then adjust as needed. Also, I'm not sure you're power supply can handle it.

First is to increase idle current to 35 mA, per the spec sheet. That alone cuts around 7 dB off the distortion figures. Then, as I said, reduce the opamp feedback (increase the resistor value) and increase global feedback (lower that resistor's value).

This sim gets it to 17.5 dB but that's with a 'normal' OPT and I don't remember if you're using UL. I sim'ed it with simply an R for bias but it works the same for your CCS. Also dropped the 'feedback pot' since it's basically useless.

Image

This get's it to around -73 dB (3'd harmonic only) at 1 Watt.

Flip:
You are showing an OPA 604 opamp.
If that an error or doesn't matter if its the op-275.

You are increasing the gain of the opamp by almost three times, from a gain of 100 to a gain of 275.
Then you increase the NFB a lot.
So why is it good to get a lot of gain in the early stage than squish it back down with a lot of negative global feed back?

What's the engineering reasoning? Is it to optimize the final audio out ?
But doesn't lots of NFB tend to have some negative audio effects too? ...
"NFB also does some bad things.
(1) NFB kills the space and air between the instruments, parts, and voices, rendering music dull and uninteresting.
(2) NFB reduces the stability of amplifier circuits
(3) NFB reduces gain."


BTW:
When I finalized the ilde point for this amp at 25ma, I was using a special software program that Chuck-"CDOOSE" sent to me.
Selecting the B+ and bias points as i did, ...his program indicated a THD of less than 1/2 of 1%

Also keeping the idle point at 25ma helps limit the power transformer requirement as John was pointing out too.

Now I'm an open minded guy... always seeking greater perfection... so I wouldn't fight ideas for improvement... However there is a great deal to be said about the (perceived) wonderful performance of the amp just the way it is now.
So why is there a question about its performance such that it needs these improvements?

What I mean is that if John and I both love how it sounds currently. Are you indicating that we are missing something? What will we hope to hear as an improvement? Will it be clearly noticeable or is it more of technical improvement showing up more on paper?


Have you yourself, Flip tried listening to it as it is?


If not I heartily suggest you toss it together in bread board form... all you'd need is a set of the Edcor PP OTs with ultra linear taps.

Unless you actually have heard it.
.. how can you determine that it needs your " improvements" or not?

If John or I... who are already enjoying the performance as it is... if he or I were to modify the amp with these changes... what can we actually hope to HEAR in the way of improvement?
I say this because... if John and I don't perceive any problems as it is now... how will we be able to detect an improvement?
In other words... what audio improvements can we expect to hear ... compared to what we hear now?

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Last edited by Pbpix on Apr Sat 07, 2018 11:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sat 07, 2018 10:49 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:

The very low feedback is why having the OPT secondary just made the amp sound sort of bad. If it had anything close to that needed for 'Hi-Fi' it would have squealed like a banshee with reversed feedback.
.

When I accidentally reversed the NFB leads my amp screamed and squealed violently.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 12:57 am 
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john8750 wrote:
I really appreciate the work you did on this Flip. Do you suggest doing away with the CCS? I do have UL hooked up. I went through your schematic, and can follow the changes. Is C2, 10pf added to stop oscillation?
If I decide to change the circuit, it will be easier to build a new board. Maybe work on it outside first.
My PT is 100watt, about 800ma. So far, it don't run too hot. I only need another 40ma.
Yes, on the oscillation although I'm not sure it's necessary (or maybe something else is necessary). I see a sudden, unusual, and quite dramatic, phase shift around 455 kHz but I'm not sure if it's 'real' or an artifact of the simulation. The OPT shouldn't pass 455 kHz so I suspect it won't happen in reality. Try it without and then add if needed. Btw, change the cap to be around the 47k feedback resistor instead of the 330K. 330k is really too high a value to work with a simple RC filter in the audio region.

The UL will do about 7 dB of local feedback, which will, of course, lower the output tube gain, which will lower the overall feedback the same amount or 17.5 - 7 = 10.5 dB. You can leave it there to try and, if you feel like it, lower the 47K feedback resistor to increase NFB more, say to 39K. Normally, with 'output tube feedback' (either UL or like in Top Cat) I like to keep the global feedback lower (around 12 to 16 dB) than without to reduce clipping 'flat topping' of the waveform (I'm a believer in 'soft overload' characteristics) but it's rather moot in this case because your opamps are clipping before the output tubes are and there's nothing you can do about that (and keep the opamps).

Another "40 mA" isn't quite the whole story. Because of the doubler it's twice that to the transformer and, then, the current multiplication factor, because it's half wave, is 2.6. So, to the transformer, the effective load is 208 mA. I guess we'll find out if that 450 mA for the heaters really is 450 mA to the transformer or phase shifted (by the cap dropper) and much lower.

To the NFB screed Peter copied from the internet (so it must be true, right?). Cutting though all the flowery words, it boils down to the author simply liking "pleasant sounding' distortion. But distortion, no matter how 'pleasant' or how much 'air' it adds to the music, is still distortion and not part of the original.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 1:30 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
but it's rather moot in this case because your opamps are clipping before the output tubes are and there's nothing you can do about that (and keep the opamps).
.

Flip:
you say that "the opamps are clipping before the output tubes are".

What you may more accurately be able to say is .. The opamps could clip before the output tube.

Because unless as far as I have observed on the scope... or unless we are turning up the volume to almost ear-splitting max... the op-amps are NOT normally or typically clipping.
That is .. Not unless there are some extreme audio peaks happening in the middle of normal listening levels.


Now as far as me quoting long diatribe about amplifier theory by published and respected authors .... why dispute that?

To the uninitiated readers of this forum or any other forum on these matters... what or whom exactly do you expect the reader ought to believe?
How does the reader distinguish Flip's technical opinions from those of these other published and respected authors? ( i.e. A master amplifier designer Eddie Vaughn)

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 3:32 am 
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So Flip:
... Give me an idea of what improvements I might hear or benefit by with the above changes.
I'm glad to try it out, at least as a trial experiment, if you really think there will be a noticeable audible change.
It's only a few resistors to change .... that is if I leave the bias where it is for ease and simplicity.

So do you feel I'll be able to detect some serious improvement if I change just the FB on the opamp and the global NFB only?

I'm open to it if you feel it will make a noticeable difference.

I'd be really encouraged Flip if you build it on the bench and let us know how it all sounds to you too.
Until then.. it's pretty hard for you to understand or believe exactly how John and I both feel about the quality we're getting now...
And even if I make your suggested changes.. how it can be described without you also personally hearing what it is we're all talking about.. No?

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 4:29 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
but it's rather moot in this case because your opamps are clipping before the output tubes are and there's nothing you can do about that (and keep the opamps).
.

Flip:
you say that "the opamps are clipping before the output tubes are".

What you may more accurately be able to say is .. The opamps could clip before the output tube.

Because unless as far as I have observed on the scope... or unless we are turning up the volume to almost ear-splitting max... the op-amps are NOT normally or typically clipping.
That is .. Not unless there are some extreme audio peaks happening in the middle of normal listening levels....
Then you're listening to already compressed music because it's flat impossible for an 8 to 10 Watt amplifier to reproduce 'normal' music at 'normal' listening levels without clipping of the transient peaks.

Typical transient peaks are around 16 to 18 dB above average program level and that translates to, for an average level of 1 Watt, 40 to 60 Watt on the peaks. That's why Bob Carver said you needed an 800 Watt amplifier, to avoid clipping, in order to reproduce music at 'realistic' (the loudness of sitting in the audience listening to a real orchestra) sound levels.

"Ear splitting' is what you ear interprets (severe) clipping distortion as, regardless of the actual power level. You can 'split your ears' at 10 Watt or turn the volume up and listen comfortably at 100 Watt.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 4:36 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
So Flip:
... Give me an idea of what improvements I might hear or benefit by with the above changes.....
I don't know what you 'like' (just as my father 'liked' bright reddish-orange people on his color TV), or even if your ears are capable of hearing it, but that's really moot because the goal John expressed was for "Hi-Fi," and that is defined as a low distortion amplifier that faithfully reproduces the original sounds.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 4:46 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
.... Now as far as me quoting long diatribe about amplifier theory by published and respected authors .... why dispute that?...
Btw, I didn't say anything about it being a "diatribe." I said it was a screed, long and tedious.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 5:52 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
.... Now as far as me quoting long diatribe about amplifier theory by published and respected authors .... why dispute that?...
Btw, I didn't say anything about it being a "diatribe." I said it was a screed, long and tedious.

Well... according to the dictionary it's the same thing.

REf : Dictionary.com

screed
[skreed]
1. noun:
a long discourse or essay, especially a diatribe.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 5:59 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
but it's rather moot in this case because your opamps are clipping before the output tubes are and there's nothing you can do about that (and keep the opamps).
.

Flip:
you say that "the opamps are clipping before the output tubes are".

What you may more accurately be able to say is .. The opamps could clip before the output tube.

Because unless as far as I have observed on the scope... or unless we are turning up the volume to almost ear-splitting max... the op-amps are NOT normally or typically clipping.
That is .. Not unless there are some extreme audio peaks happening in the middle of normal listening levels....
Then you're listening to already compressed music because it's flat impossible for an 8 to 10 Watt amplifier to reproduce 'normal' music at 'normal' listening levels without clipping of the transient peaks.

Typical transient peaks are around 16 to 18 dB above average program level and that translates to, for an average level of 1 Watt, 40 to 60 Watt on the peaks. That's why Bob Carver said you needed an 800 Watt amplifier, to avoid clipping, in order to reproduce music at 'realistic' (the loudness of sitting in the audience listening to a real orchestra) sound levels.

"Ear splitting' is what you ear interprets (severe) clipping distortion as, regardless of the actual power level. You can 'split your ears' at 10 Watt or turn the volume up and listen comfortably at 100 Watt.

Well that's exactly why I said: "Not unless there are some extreme audio peaks happening"
Because... that's not readily visible on the scope... so I was referring to the fact that if I use an input signal of normal volume I don't see the opamp output flat toping until about 37vpp... and that would be extremely high volume.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 6:29 am 
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Very interesting Men. Thanks for the in-depth look into this. I read all of the info, with interest.
I can remodel the circuit board in place with very little difficultly. But don't think I can increase cathode current easily.
Would it be worth it to make the change. Thanks again for the help....
Attachment:
Ricks complete.jpg
Ricks complete.jpg [ 209.26 KiB | Viewed 1657 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 6:32 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Then you're listening to already compressed music because it's flat impossible for an 8 to 10 Watt amplifier to reproduce 'normal' music at 'normal' listening levels without clipping of the transient peaks.

Typical transient peaks are around 16 to 18 dB above average program level and that translates to, for an average level of 1 Watt, 40 to 60 Watt on the peaks. That's why Bob Carver said you needed an 800 Watt amplifier, to avoid clipping, in order to reproduce music at 'realistic' (the loudness of sitting in the audience listening to a real orchestra) sound levels.

"Ear splitting' is what you ear interprets (severe) clipping distortion as, regardless of the actual power level. You can 'split your ears' at 10 Watt or turn the volume up and listen comfortably at 100 Watt.

Well that's exactly why I said: "Not unless there are some extreme audio peaks happening"
Because... that's not readily visible on the scope... so I was referring to the fact that if I use an input signal of normal volume I don't see the opamp output flat toping until about 37vpp... and that would be extremely high volume.
This is why I generally avoid discussions with you. You always want to argue.and, of course, you're always 'right' regardless.

Give my regards to your "ear splitting" amp.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 7:04 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Very interesting Men. Thanks for the in-depth look into this. I read all of the info, with interest.
I can remodel the circuit board in place with very little difficultly. But don't think I can increase cathode current easily.
Would it be worth it to make the change. Thanks again for the help....
Attachment:
Ricks complete.jpg

If you're happy with it then leave it as is.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Sun 08, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Then you're listening to already compressed music because it's flat impossible for an 8 to 10 Watt amplifier to reproduce 'normal' music at 'normal' listening levels without clipping of the transient peaks.

Typical transient peaks are around 16 to 18 dB above average program level and that translates to, for an average level of 1 Watt, 40 to 60 Watt on the peaks. That's why Bob Carver said you needed an 800 Watt amplifier, to avoid clipping, in order to reproduce music at 'realistic' (the loudness of sitting in the audience listening to a real orchestra) sound levels.

"Ear splitting' is what you ear interprets (severe) clipping distortion as, regardless of the actual power level. You can 'split your ears' at 10 Watt or turn the volume up and listen comfortably at 100 Watt.

Well that's exactly why I said: "Not unless there are some extreme audio peaks happening"
Because... that's not readily visible on the scope... so I was referring to the fact that if I use an input signal of normal volume I don't see the opamp output flat toping until about 37vpp... and that would be extremely high volume.
This is why I generally avoid discussions with you. You always want to argue.and, of course, you're always 'right' regardless.

Give my regards to your "ear splitting" amp.
what you call "arguing" is me simply asking questions to fully explore what you mean.
I put in the caveat about high peaks or bursts specifically because I needed to clarify if what you meant about clipping referred to flat topping at max Vol or burst peaks in the music stream.
I'm trying to understand. You need to aceppt that your audience has questions and it requires you to be more precise or take the time to patiently address the questions without getting frustrated so easily. Your view towards reasonable questions determines your opinion about arguing or elucidation

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Mon 09, 2018 1:51 am 
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After transposing the secondary OT connections, testing with and without NFB, switchable, the amp is completed. I will let mu Cousin decide how he likes it. There is a difference. Both ways are nice. I do consider it to be in the HI-Fi class, however that is defined.
BUT---- I moved the amp back to the house and connected it for a little relaxing music. NOPE- an awful low level screech.from both speakers. I was just about ready for a tantrum. I sit down, scratch my head. Idea, maybe the plugs are loose. Yep, the MP3 player 1/8th plug was out of the socket a bit. That was the problem.
Playing now very nice. The NFB switch is like a softness setting. That's the only difference I can detect.
The tone controls are very responsive.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Mon 09, 2018 1:57 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
Well that's exactly why I said: "Not unless there are some extreme audio peaks happening"
Because... that's not readily visible on the scope... so I was referring to the fact that if I use an input signal of normal volume I don't see the opamp output flat toping until about 37vpp... and that would be extremely high volume.
This is why I generally avoid discussions with you. You always want to argue.and, of course, you're always 'right' regardless.

Give my regards to your "ear splitting" amp.
what you call "arguing" is me simply asking questions to fully explore what you mean.
I put in the caveat about high peaks or bursts specifically because I needed to clarify if what you meant about clipping referred to flat topping at max Vol or burst peaks in the music stream.
I'm trying to understand. You need to aceppt that your audience has questions and it requires you to be more precise or take the time to patiently address the questions without getting frustrated so easily. Your view towards reasonable questions determines your opinion about arguing or elucidation
Oh, thanks for reminding me.

And then, despite everything, you profess innocence.


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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Mon 09, 2018 3:48 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:

And then, despite everything, you profess innocence.

My intentions and questions are always from the point of resolving clarity or understanding. So if you prefer...Yes. Call it innocence. . It's without malice

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Tue 10, 2018 11:34 pm 
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Peter- Did you rebuild the opamp section of the 6V6 per Flips remodel? And did you see the change he recently made to the input gain and NFB circuits?

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Wed 11, 2018 4:25 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Peter- Did you rebuild the opamp section of the 6V6 per Flips remodel? And did you see the change he recently made to the input gain and NFB circuits?

Haven't you been reading my last group of posts?

I did rebuild it monhts ago for input to the non-inverting input and 56k ohm NFB resistor.

Recently he indicated that increasing the opamp gain from 100 to 275 and increasing the NFB would be a nother step toward "hifi" .... if you read my questions to him... I indicated I'd be glad to make those few resistor changes and could he explain what improvements I might expect to actually anticipate hearing.
But he didn't indicate anything specific. So ... that's where it is.

You asked about the changes... and he told you that if you like what you hear now to leave it that way... isn't that what he said?... but I think that was the jist of it IIRC.

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 Post subject: Re: 6V6 amp project- with a twist
PostPosted: Apr Wed 11, 2018 5:37 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Peter- Did you rebuild the opamp section of the 6V6 per Flips remodel? And did you see the change he recently made to the input gain and NFB circuits?

Haven't you been reading my last group of posts?

I did rebuild it monhts ago for input to the non-inverting input and 56k ohm NFB resistor.

Recently he indicated that increasing the opamp gain from 100 to 275 and increasing the NFB would be a nother step toward "hifi" .... if you read my questions to him... I indicated I'd be glad to make those few resistor changes and could he explain what improvements I might expect to actually anticipate hearing.
But he didn't indicate anything specific. So ... that's where it is.

You asked about the changes... and he told you that if you like what you hear now to leave it that way... isn't that what he said?... but I think that was the jist of it IIRC.




So your short answer is 'yes and no'

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