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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Mon 13, 2020 9:06 pm 
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Location: Fenton, MI 48430
Chas wrote:
Does the O.P.'s loop resonate across the BC band?

A full wave outdoor loop at 900 kHz is 1116 feet of wire. I doubt it is resonate.

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Last edited by jimbenedict on Jul Tue 14, 2020 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Mon 13, 2020 9:23 pm 
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I used 128' of wire as i recall. I use a 9pf to 120pf (approx)var cap. It tunes nicely. Ive only
ever tested it at the upper bcb as that where i do all my listening.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Mon 13, 2020 11:12 pm 
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poulsbobill wrote:
I used 128' of wire as I recall. I use a 9pf to 120pf (approx)var cap. It tunes nicely. Ive only ever tested it at the upper BCB as that where i do all my listening.
Bill
A simple test for the loops intended resonance range in the BC band is to use a nearby transistor radio in close proximity to the loop. Leave the pick-up turns open. Tune the radio to a station at or near 600khz then tune the loops condenser. If a peak/null is found, good. Then tune the radio for 1500khz, tune the loop accordingly, if a peak/null is obtained then the loop is functioning as it should.

The other questions pertain to the home construction, too much shielding in the home can effect loop operation. For example aluminum siding or attempting to operate the loop in the cellar, below grade.

YMMV

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Tue 14, 2020 1:49 am 
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Location: Poulsbo, Wa
The loop works great for radios that have one. I put near a small am/fm radio and the increase
in volume and the ability to get faint stations was amazing.
I do believe though that these old zeniths needed the inductance of a long wire. Electrostatic radiation
vs magnetic radiation i think i read somewhere.

It would be nice to get 1000 feet of wire on one of these loops but from what i read the inductance goes so far up (down) that it only usable at higher (lower) wavelengths. ie as they get bigger you actually use less loops of wire to get to the bcb.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Tue 14, 2020 2:16 am 
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Joined: Jun Mon 24, 2013 3:00 pm
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Location: Champaign IL 61822
I'vew found that every location is different, unless you are transmitting
with a big yagi on a big tower.

And reception varies with, not just the phase of the moon, but the phase of the sun,
and the phase of the politics of the FCC and the happiness of the flunkies
of the utility company.

Today I did a big survey of what changing my antenna, within certain
parameters, did. Nothing, as far as S/N went. A bit, as far as
absolute signal level went.

But in the past there have been big differences in S/N with the same antenna changes.
This just depends on how much manmade noise there is, and where it is coming from.
That varies.


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Fri 17, 2020 1:29 am 
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I ran the ground wire out to my cable box ground. Figure i would give it a try and see how noisy it was.
When i connected to my radio it cut the long wire static in half. Nice.

I have a question about grounding the end of the long wire. I have heard it makes the antenna more directional.

I have a situation where i listen to a station about 40 miles north of me (5000 watts) and pick up a station about 250 miles south of me
(5000 watts) in the background. My long wire is north/south. Will this directionality help in one direction or is this in both directions?

Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Fri 17, 2020 2:38 am 
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poulsbobill wrote:
I ran the ground wire out to my cable box ground. Figure i would give it a try and see how noisy it was.
When i connected to my radio it cut the long wire static in half. Nice.

I have a question about grounding the end of the long wire. I have heard it makes the antenna more directional.

I have a situation where i listen to a station about 40 miles north of me (5000 watts) and pick up a station about 250 miles south of me
(5000 watts) in the background. My long wire is north/south. Will this directionality help in one direction or is this in both directions?

Thanks

Bill

A tunable loop instead of a longwire might help you with that.

On 550 KC, I can pick up KUZZ/Bakersfield, and when reception is good, KFYI/Phoenix, by simply turning the radio, or the tunable loop, to null out one or the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Fri 17, 2020 3:28 am 
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poulsbobill wrote:
I have a question about grounding the end of the long wire. I have heard it makes the antenna more directional.
Um, yes, the Beverage antenna

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverage_antenna

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Fri 17, 2020 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Aug Mon 18, 2008 3:17 pm
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Location: Dallas Tx.
One 1920's magazine recommends 18 inch separation between gnd and antenna lead in for a 150 ft long wire.
My 1920's antenna kit has a flat under window piece that separates the ant and gnd by 4 inches.
I've had my longwire fed in thru the wall together and separated but cannot ID a advantage. Outside and inside the wires are always separated.


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Fri 17, 2020 10:01 pm 
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Location: Leo, IN or Zellwood, FL
poulsbobill wrote:
I ran the ground wire out to my cable box ground. Figure i would give it a try and see how noisy it was.
When i connected to my radio it cut the long wire static in half. Nice.

I have a question about grounding the end of the long wire. I have heard it makes the antenna more directional.

I have a situation where i listen to a station about 40 miles north of me (5000 watts) and pick up a station about 250 miles south of me
(5000 watts) in the background. My long wire is north/south. Will this directionality help in one direction or is this in both directions?

Thanks

Bill


If your long wire is long enough then yes. Attach a 600 ohm carbon resistor to the North End and attach the other end of the resistor to a ground rod. That should create some Front to Back Ratio and in reality reject some of the signal coming from the South.
John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Sun 19, 2020 12:27 am 
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Hi John,

I finally got to the longwire. Have been comparing to a loop but for this old zenith the longwire wins so far.

You had mentioned in the discussion about the 6-b-129 farm radio that you had your various long wires on a switch.

Anything fancy there?

Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Sun 19, 2020 1:32 am 
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poulsbobill wrote:
Hi John,

I finally got to the longwire. Have been comparing to a loop but for this old zenith the longwire wins so far.

You had mentioned in the discussion about the 6-b-129 farm radio that you had your various long wires on a switch.

Anything fancy there?

Thanks

Bill


I actually have a Ham Radio Transmit/Receive antenna switch. Ameritron RCS-8V which is a 5 position coax switch. SO-239 connectors.. yes they make SO to F adapters. The switch grounds the Un-used ports. That box is 150 feet from the house as I feed it with a buried length of quad shielded RG6. I used it because I had a spare one on hand. I don't see where it would make much difference if you used some 12volt sealed relays. Built your own box. Metal sheet for the 3 or 4 or 5 whatever number of long beverage wires you put out. You need some small conductor multiwire cable to operate the relay box. One ground plus however many antennas and relays you have at the start point for all of them.
John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Tue 28, 2020 1:56 am 
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I tried the resistor at the end of my random wire to ground. I used a 470 ohm and then used 570. i could hear no difference in the offending station.

So i checked the map again and i want to pick up the station 48 miles northish of me but i also get the station 195 miles southish of me. Both the same 1430.
Both stations are 5000 watt. I am in a straight line between them.
Now the closer station i want to hear is 90% but i do hear that darn talk radio in the background.
The random wire is 200' + about 40 feet into the house pointed toward the good station. I had read that a ground at the end under 1/4 wavelength may not work. I have tried with and w/o a good ground at the radio.
The worst is like today all sunshine. maybe 70/30 now between the stations. I have tried a loop and no difference.

Any other ideas to try?

Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Tue 28, 2020 3:49 am 
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Location: Leo, IN or Zellwood, FL
poulsbobill wrote:
Any other ideas to try?

Thanks

Bill


HI Bill yes try a EWE antenna. Click up this link to Patterns of a EWE antenna.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pattern+of+a+EWE+antenna&client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=sw9y1lU1aar8RM%252CFIlBsPRINE2UPM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ6N4iTl2UyltaQrCutLb8WLI1usQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj4-cK96-7qAhUQVc0KHUEWAZcQ9QEwA3oECAoQBQ&biw=1648&bih=943#imgrc=_zu9-6kHfsuUDM

If you then click on the one labeled Field Day June 23 24 W9AZ then in the upper right corner click on the picture and up comes a PDF file that is the newsletter from a Ham Club in ILL. In that you find an article on how to build a EWE type antenna. They show it as around 15 feet in height for the vertical portions and around 60 feet in horizontal length between the two vertical points. It shows how to build the matching 9 to 1 ratio impedance transformer and what is needed to create the antenna. They claim that something between 900 and 1200 ohms for the resistor is what they used.

How well do they work? I will now relate how and why I built a EWE in Aruba back in 1997. Aruba is an island desert. Real Ground is about 200 feet below the surface of the ground. So ground rods basically don't do much of anything. I went to Aruba that year to compete in a 160M only ham band contest. I had two beverage style antennas of 900 feet each. One pointed toward central USA the other toward Europe. Directly behind me if I were looking at the USA was another competing Ham Radio Station. Mike K4PI operating that one. The problem would be how to null out Mike who was behind me so I could continue to hear USA stations calling me. The answer was to build a EWE antenna Since Ground Rods won't work I finished the Loop. A wire at ground level between the two vertical portions of the antenna. Then you call it a Flag Antenna. Instead of a fixed resistor I put a Variable Resistor in place. Something that would go from zero ohms to around 3000 ohms. Then a couple nites before this contest started Mike was on the air trying out his antennas and I went out to this EWE antenna with a 2mtr handitalkie and my wife listening and watching the S meter on the receiver which was listening to Mike. So while Mike transmitted my wife would tell me where the NULL was as I adjusted that variable resistor... and yes I got a very nice drop in Mike's signal level. Meaning that the Cardiod pattern of the antenna was maxed out in the null to the rear. Something like that should allow you to eliminate the talk station from being heard through the desired station. I then took the variable resistor into the house. Measured the ohm value and came up with fixed resistors to match. It worked well. I had to be LOUD at Mike's place and wasn't near as loud at my place therefore he had to put his transmitter farther away in Khz from me. It worked. I was in the same place the year before 1996... in 1996 I won first place WORLD in that competition in 1997 I came in Second place World. Lost to a guy in the Canary Islands that year. in 1996 I had around 1000 contacts in 65 different countries over the two nite contest and only around 900 in 1997. I beat Mike both years. We had a real storm in the US the first nite of the 1997 contest that didn't help for sure.

So anyway yes the EWE antennas do work. Signal level should be perhaps a bit less than your 200 foot wire. But the reverse direction should be down farther than the 200 foot wire.
John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Wed 29, 2020 1:37 am 
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Nice article you wrote there.

Not sure how soon i could try that.

I did like the idea of a variable resistor to ground and have read that can be tricky to get the right value with a beverage.

Also, I rechecked my ground and drove it in further.

All ideas appreciated!!!!

Thanks,

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Wed 29, 2020 6:18 am 
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Joined: Aug Mon 18, 2008 3:17 pm
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Location: Dallas Tx.
Your long wire has a strong narrow pick up lobe off the lead in side. A change of 30 degrees in orientation will enhance or reduce reception in that direction.
A unconnected ground wire along one side of the loop will reduce the reception in that direction and enhance reception on the opposite side.
Two additional 50 ft legs added 18 inches parallel to the antenna will change the pick up pattern, more to the sides and less off the ends. They could be run parallel to the ground under the antenna.


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Wed 29, 2020 5:28 pm 
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homebrew wrote:
Your long wire has a strong narrow pick up lobe off the lead in side. A change of 30 degrees in orientation will enhance or reduce reception in that direction.
A unconnected ground wire along one side of the loop will reduce the reception in that direction and enhance reception on the opposite side.
Two additional 50 ft legs added 18 inches parallel to the antenna will change the pick up pattern, more to the sides and less off the ends. They could be run parallel to the ground under the antenna.

A little more explanation please.
1. "strong narrow pick up lobe off the lead in side"?
2. I have read about the ground idea on a loop but if you are putting the ground on one side of the loop you are just increasing the null on that side as you are pointing the loop towards the station you want. How does this help? I am trying to null a station behind me but in line with another ahead of me.
3. I am trying to get more end reception, not from the sides of the antenna.

Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Wed 29, 2020 7:39 pm 
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Image

John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Thu 30, 2020 8:17 am 
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Location: Dallas Tx.
1. strong pick up lobe on the lead in side:
http://kearman.com/bentongue/xtalset/12 ... ILAnt.html
*
2. A loop has a figure 8 pick up pattern off the narrow winding sides (ends). You can reduce the interference from one side (end) and enhance the reception towards the opposite side (end).
You should be able from your description pick up either station with out problems from the other one using the ground. My experience is that the ground acts as a counterpoise increasing the signal from the opposite side (end). Moving a loop to a area in the house with a lot of counterpoise acting plumbing has also improved my loop reception.
3. I'm using side as off the winding side. You are using end for the same direction. I've never seen the flat side of a loop called anything except maybe null side or broadside.


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Jul Thu 30, 2020 5:28 pm 
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When i have read about adding a ground loop to a loop it was always on one side of the loops ie

! !!!!!!!!!!!
^ ^
ground reg loop wires

the figure 8 would be north and south with more nulling on the left side

Or are you saying the ground should be like this?

!!!!!!!!!!!! = loop
! = ground or ---
Ie nulling the bottom of the 8? I do see how this would be more directional but how to do it?

Thanks

Bill

I see my drawing did not translate well i hope u get the idea.


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