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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Sat 01, 2020 7:16 am 
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Location: Dallas Tx.
Just a unconnected ground line placed vertically next to the end opposite the direction you are trying to pick up.
Distance adjusted for best results. If it works for you variations can be tried. I used a 4 ft by 4 ft piece of grounded rabbit wire about 3 ft away from the loop to help ID the location of unidentified stations.
You just need to experiment with antennas until you find a set up for your location that works for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Sat 01, 2020 7:40 am 
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Location: Omak,wa,usa
Hello guys,
some great reading here since I am going to hook up my long wire which will only be like 65 to 70 feet not vaunting the lead in wire


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Mon 10, 2020 12:32 am 
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Location: Poulsbo, Wa
k9uwa wrote:
poulsbobill wrote:
Any other ideas to try?

Thanks

Bill


HI Bill yes try a EWE antenna. Click up this link to Patterns of a EWE antenna.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Pattern+of+a+EWE+antenna&client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=sw9y1lU1aar8RM%252CFIlBsPRINE2UPM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ6N4iTl2UyltaQrCutLb8WLI1usQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj4-cK96-7qAhUQVc0KHUEWAZcQ9QEwA3oECAoQBQ&biw=1648&bih=943#imgrc=_zu9-6kHfsuUDM

If you then click on the one labeled Field Day June 23 24 W9AZ then in the upper right corner click on the picture and up comes a PDF file that is the newsletter from a Ham Club in ILL. In that you find an article on how to build a EWE type antenna. They show it as around 15 feet in height for the vertical portions and around 60 feet in horizontal length between the two vertical points. It shows how to build the matching 9 to 1 ratio impedance transformer and what is needed to create the antenna. They claim that something between 900 and 1200 ohms for the resistor is what they used.

How well do they work? I will now relate how and why I built a EWE in Aruba back in 1997. Aruba is an island desert. Real Ground is about 200 feet below the surface of the ground. So ground rods basically don't do much of anything. I went to Aruba that year to compete in a 160M only ham band contest. I had two beverage style antennas of 900 feet each. One pointed toward central USA the other toward Europe. Directly behind me if I were looking at the USA was another competing Ham Radio Station. Mike K4PI operating that one. The problem would be how to null out Mike who was behind me so I could continue to hear USA stations calling me. The answer was to build a EWE antenna Since Ground Rods won't work I finished the Loop. A wire at ground level between the two vertical portions of the antenna. Then you call it a Flag Antenna. Instead of a fixed resistor I put a Variable Resistor in place. Something that would go from zero ohms to around 3000 ohms. Then a couple nites before this contest started Mike was on the air trying out his antennas and I went out to this EWE antenna with a 2mtr handitalkie and my wife listening and watching the S meter on the receiver which was listening to Mike. So while Mike transmitted my wife would tell me where the NULL was as I adjusted that variable resistor... and yes I got a very nice drop in Mike's signal level. Meaning that the Cardiod pattern of the antenna was maxed out in the null to the rear. Something like that should allow you to eliminate the talk station from being heard through the desired station. I then took the variable resistor into the house. Measured the ohm value and came up with fixed resistors to match. It worked well. I had to be LOUD at Mike's place and wasn't near as loud at my place therefore he had to put his transmitter farther away in Khz from me. It worked. I was in the same place the year before 1996... in 1996 I won first place WORLD in that competition in 1997 I came in Second place World. Lost to a guy in the Canary Islands that year. in 1996 I had around 1000 contacts in 65 different countries over the two nite contest and only around 900 in 1997. I beat Mike both years. We had a real storm in the US the first nite of the 1997 contest that didn't help for sure.

So anyway yes the EWE antennas do work. Signal level should be perhaps a bit less than your 200 foot wire. But the reverse direction should be down farther than the 200 foot wire.
John k9uwa


I have some interesting observations to share,
I did put up approximately 200' random wire pointed to the station i want to listen to At 1430 on the dial so 1/4 wave ish.
When i added the ground and a variable resistor i got exactly the opposite of what was expected. My station in the opposite direction got stronger and i found one even further away possibly fresno ca as we turned the var resistor. Actually a jumbled mess of stations, so i did some more research and i found my beverage is just too short for directionality. I believe you are referring to true beverages which i do not have the area for.

Refer to this https://www.aytechnologies.com/TechData/ShortBev.htm
Which does talk 1/4 wavelength beverages and about your ewe idea.

Bill


Last edited by poulsbobill on Aug Mon 10, 2020 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Mon 10, 2020 12:48 am 
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Location: Poulsbo, Wa
[quote="homebrew"]1. strong pick up lobe on the lead in side:
http://kearman.com/bentongue/xtalset/12 ... ILAnt.html
*
This is a little beyond my pay grade but what i thought was interesting was adding a cap at then end of the wire to ground ...figure 4.

Any idea on values to start at?

Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Mon 10, 2020 2:13 am 
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poulsbobill wrote:
homebrew wrote:
1. strong pick up lobe on the lead in side:
http://kearman.com/bentongue/xtalset/12 ... ILAnt.html
*
This is a little beyond my pay grade but what i thought was interesting was adding a cap at then end of the wire to ground ...figure 4.

Any idea on values to start at?

Thanks

Bill


Inverted-L antenna if your lucky you might get 2 to 4 dB rejection off the un-desired end Bill. Not near enough to solve your problem. Probably the EWE might do it since yes your beverage isn't long enough to get directivity out of it. Try the EWE. 20 feet or so of vertical wire on each end. Top horizontal wire 50-60 feet or what you have easy... a couple trees to hang it from. And the tune the resistor for the Null of the offending station.
John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Mon 10, 2020 7:01 am 
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poulsbobill wrote:
I did put up approximately 200' random wire pointed to the station i want to listen to At 1430 on the dial so 1/4 wave ish.
When i added the ground and a variable resistor i got exactly the opposite of what was expected. My station in the opposite direction got stronger and i found one even further away possibly fresno ca

That may have been KYNO, which play '60's oldies. I can get their transmissions from time to time, fading in and out. Ya done good from Washington state, as it's only a 5,000 watt station.

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Mon 10, 2020 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Feb Wed 12, 2014 4:25 pm
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Location: Southeast Kans. - KA0HCP
Gilligan wrote:
What "fifties" said is very true. There is no cut and dried answer to good reception. What works for one person, doesn't work for the next. Same goes for one radio to the next. I started out keeping a 3x5 card on the back of my radios about what worked best for each. Eventually, I ended up with a lot of tricks to try.


Well, not entirely true.

Random antennas installed randomly or changed randomly are unpredictable.

Not knowing the characteristics of a radio and randomly connecting antenna systems yeilds unpredictable results.

Properly designed antennas and properly modeled antennas are quite predictable in performance.

Learning about antennas, feedlines, and impedance matching will pay dividends in performance! b.


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Mon 10, 2020 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Feb Wed 12, 2014 4:25 pm
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Location: Southeast Kans. - KA0HCP
poulsbobill wrote:
I do believe though that these old zeniths needed the inductance of a long wire. Electrostatic radiation
vs magnetic radiation i think i read somewhere.

Bill

Pure silliness on both claims.


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Tue 11, 2020 1:50 am 
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Well, i have 2 new opinions . Not quite sure what to make of them.
Im trying to learn specific things about my specific situation.

Those that know can chose to help those that dont.

Not sure how i got moved to this category.

Thanks,

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Tue 11, 2020 3:01 am 
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poulsbobill wrote:
Well, i have 2 new opinions . Not quite sure what to make of them.
Im trying to learn specific things about my specific situation.

Those that know can chose to help those that dont.

Not sure how i got moved to this category.

Thanks,

Bill


Beats me Bill about the category change. But this part you can count on. The EWE antenna will have a good front to back ratio. Feedline end is on the desired direction and the resistor is toward the station you want to null out. The antenna performs like a pair of vertical antennas. The horizontal wire across the top forms the phase change and it is a very broadbanded antenna. A little wire in a couple trees 15 to 20 feet vertical each end and 50-60 feet horizontal plus a couple ground rods.. one at each end. Yes you will have 75 ohm coax from the antenna to the house. And inside the house at the radio you need to reverse the impedance from 75 ohms back up to around 600 ohms to satisfy the hi impedance input to the zenith radio. So build two of those impedance transformers. Waterproof one of them.
John k9uwa
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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Tue 11, 2020 4:29 pm 
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Yes i will try this.
Does it matter the ratio of the vertical to horizontal runs in case my trees are at a diff length/height?
Is horizontal length the important part or vertical? Or is ratio more important? Longer better if i can?
Does the torroid mix matter? I have 2 43's on hand. Can they be wrapped like your original article?
I mostly listen to broadcast hi end of the dial.
Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Tue 11, 2020 10:43 pm 
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poulsbobill wrote:
Yes i will try this.
Does it matter the ratio of the vertical to horizontal runs in case my trees are at a diff length/height?
Is horizontal length the important part or vertical? Or is ratio more important? Longer better if i can?
Does the torroid mix matter? I have 2 43's on hand. Can they be wrapped like your original article?
I mostly listen to broadcast hi end of the dial.
Thanks

Bill


Probably the most important would be that the two vertical sections should be the same height. So pick the low one and then duplicate that from the taller tree. Use some sort of rope to hold them in position. As to horizontal length ... whatever it is between the trees. 50 feet probably minimum. A bit longer should still be OK. Same use here Bill. Except it is 1825 Khz instead of 1200 to 1700 khz. You will need something like a 2K or even a 5K linear taper pot to use to set it with. Once set then remove the pot and read it with an ohm meter. Then replace the pot with fixed CARBON resistors... don't use wirewound resistors. As to the 43 mix I doubt it makes much difference and the ratio and turns would still be the same. Expect the signal on this antenna to be down from a 100 foot wire.... but the atmospheric noise will be down farther than the signal level. And if you get it right the rejection off the back should be enough to eliminated the undesired station. You will need a second person and best if you have a couple walkie talkies so someone inside listening for the NULL of the undesired station can tell you where to set the pot.

The first one of these I put up... Jean and I put it up in JAN here in Northern Indiana. Heavy wooded area on the west side of our house. I had around 20 feet of vertical wire.... yes a ladder against a tree in the snow. I did already have the ground rods and coax in place. Hammer in hand and a couple of those electric fence plastic insulators.. up the ladder. stop at 20 foot. Nail into tree the insulator. wrap wire a couple times around it. Off to the second tree.. same thing. I later worried about the tuning as most important to me at that point was Low Atmospheric Noise Antenna ... so I could hear weak Japanese stations on 1905 to 1912 khz was the JA transmit window on the 160m band. It worked.

John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Wed 12, 2020 9:32 pm 
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Installing an antenna in Northern Indiana in Jan....thats dedication.

I have been reading theory about these EWE antenna's . Interesting. I think i understand how they achieve directionality somewhat.
I have a situation i wonder if you could comment on.
As you know i am trying to null the station to the south and pick up the one to the north.
I have a chimney that i could run the vertical terminating wire down ( the resistor side) on the outside. The chimney (brick) would block the station
i want and have a clear path to the one i dont want to the south. The other vertical wire near the balun would be more or less clear on all sides ( some trees) and at the north end of course.

Would this help? Hurt, or do nothing vs having the vertical terminating wire be in a clearer area?

Buying some coax this w/e.

Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Wed 12, 2020 10:53 pm 
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You just have to experiment. There's a limit, obviously, as to what can be suggested over the net, W/O being there in person.

Here's another idea; consider buying a tunable loop with the feature of connecting it in series between the outside antenna and the receiver (as not all of them have that). You could then use it to null out the undesired station.

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Thu 13, 2020 3:05 am 
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poulsbobill wrote:
Installing an antenna in Northern Indiana in Jan....thats dedication.

I have been reading theory about these EWE antenna's . Interesting. I think i understand how they achieve directionality somewhat.
I have a situation i wonder if you could comment on.
As you know i am trying to null the station to the south and pick up the one to the north.
I have a chimney that i could run the vertical terminating wire down ( the resistor side) on the outside. The chimney (brick) would block the station
i want and have a clear path to the one i dont want to the south. The other vertical wire near the balun would be more or less clear on all sides ( some trees) and at the north end of course.

Would this help? Hurt, or do nothing vs having the vertical terminating wire be in a clearer area?

Buying some coax this w/e.

Thanks

Bill


I would keep the whole antenna as far from the house as you can get it. just be sure that the thing is lined up on the Not Desired station. The front end as you can see by the computer view is quite broad. so off a hair in desired direction no big deal ... but get the NULL in line and tune it to reject the not desired station. Who knows what the chimmney and the house would do to the pattern of the antenna. It probably won't be good.
John

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Thu 13, 2020 5:05 pm 
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John,
I will report back when i get this thing up. Thank you.
I will say now having a n/s wire and a e/w wire is amazing the difference it provides to the set.
Still building a switch box.

Fifties,
I have tried the loop idea in series. I can null, but not in only one direction. I have a station to the south i dont want and one to the north i do on the same wavelength. I tried to use a ground in the back of the loop, if you will, pointed at the southern station like homebrew had suggested but so far no real difference. Im not sure i am getting the ground right "behind" the loop. Still trying.

Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Sat 15, 2020 4:39 am 
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Eickerman wrote:
westcoastjohn wrote:
Hello Curtis, how about using a length of coax cable? Would you say twin-lead is better or no diff?
Yes, you can also certainly use coax cable. It generally runs a little bit more money, but should work just fine. It can be used with or without a balun. Again, things like baluns and impedance matching are much more of an issue for transmitters than for receivers.

Curtis Eickerman


I've been under the impression that using coax as a lead-in for a long wire antenna, with the outer shield grounded, would create a capacitor that would bleed your antenna signal off to ground. Is this not true?


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Sat 15, 2020 5:48 am 
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SkyKing wrote:
I've been under the impression that using coax as a lead-in for a long wire antenna, with the outer shield grounded, would create a capacitor that would bleed your antenna signal off to ground. Is this not true?
Yes, it could do that, but it could also help minimize picking up interfering signals inside the home (switching power supplies, TV sets, computer noise, wall-wart supplies, fluorescent lights, LED lighting, etc.). So you can try it with and without the shield being grounded and see which works the best.

Without the ground connected it still provides protection for the wire touching metal objects as you get it into the house.

There are times I have even used coax with the ungrounded shield purposely connected to the center conductor when the coax was feeding a dipole. This converted it into a top loaded vertical.

Experimentation is the name of the game. Antennas are "like a box of chocolates..."

Curtis Eickerman

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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Sat 15, 2020 6:39 am 
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Hello John,
I am also getting ready to install my Antenna so you say run some RG-59 or R-6 from the antenna lead in thought the wall using a 75 to 600 Antenna balun one at each end of the cable right ?
I do have some RG-59 laying around .

My Antenna will be like 8 to 9 ft off the ground since I have no trees one end will hook to a upright beam on my house and the other end will hook to my upright post holding my Carport running like 65 feet .


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 Post subject: Re: Long wire ( random wire) and ground proximity
PostPosted: Aug Sat 15, 2020 11:54 am 
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Location: Dallas Tx.
A temporary counterpoise ground wire running along the ground under a low antenna is a worthwhile experiment.


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