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 Post subject: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Sun 16, 2020 4:21 pm 
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Good Morning guys! Here's possibly a fun and informative project for you guys. I purchased a box of parts pictured below from a seller who said it was all the parts from a disassembled unknown make breadboard radio. Give me your schematics using all the pictured parts ( must use all shown parts) , also include your tube #'s and layout of each and battery voltages etc. Thanks and lets get started!


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Sun 16, 2020 5:09 pm 
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Eddie,

The parts would comprise a regenerative receiver with an RF stage. I do not see a device for neutralizing but that is an easy fabrication.

A schematic for a Browning-Drake would likely be applicable. The B-D has numerous configurations so a flexible plan would be in mind.
Attachment:
Browning-Drake version.png
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The Browning-Drake does not have to be built exactly to the schematic. The example has a volt meter and an internal "C" battery neither are required and "C" battery can be provided externally by re-routing the the wiring and rheostat. Also a filament control jack for the last audio and a variable grid leak. All of which are not required.

The Browning-Drake claim to fame is a slot winding in the detector tuning coil. Such a coil is still a three circuit tuner which it appears exists in the parts you have but it is not a slot winding type.

Using the correct windings in the two RF transformers for tuning to determine resonance would be the first plan.

Do allow for a "standard" panel size such that both a panel and a cabinet can be found as old stock or salvage...

Two of the rheostats are actually too high to use for 201a tubes. Try cleaning the rheostats thoroughly and measure with your best analog VOM, three decimal place accuracy is not. required.

Likely require a grid leak and a grid condenser for the detector...

If both coils are incorporated into the build they must be spaced at least two coil diameters of the larger coil and at right angles to each other.

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Sun 16, 2020 9:31 pm 
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Hey Chas ! thanks for the input , I forgot to add the following two pictures of the one tuning coil setup.the seller said that was all the parts of the radio other than the battery posts which he kept for one of his projects , so I dunno.


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Sun 16, 2020 9:41 pm 
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The coil shown with a center rotor should have three separate windings including counting the rotor. That is a regenerative detector tuning coil.

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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Sun 16, 2020 9:48 pm 
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It does ,the center rotor coil measures 1.3 ohms , the outer coils measure .7 ohms and 1.7 ohms , the other coil has two windings one at 1.2ohms and one at 2.4 ohms


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Sun 16, 2020 9:54 pm 
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this is schematic i had looked at earlier but its got few extra parts to what i have.


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Sun 16, 2020 10:43 pm 
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That variation is fine too.
Attachment:
Browning-Drake-another.jpg
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Note a tapped detector coil is not required, a neutralizing disk is used. At tapped antenna primary is not required if a series or parallel tuning condenser is used across the primary. That smaller tuning condenser may be applicable or not...

I would recommend wiring the set with bus wire as flexible wire will have varying effects if it gets moved around. O.K. for testing purposes. You could try 14ga solid insulated hookup wire from Alpha $$ in black. By slightly stretching the wire the insulation will become a sleeving allowing it to be pulled back to be carefully cut for splices and taps. Or, use 14 ga round tin plated bare bus, careful planing may not need spaghetti, authentic varnished cambric is no longer available but black coated fiberglass sleeving is. All bus needs to be stretched so it work hardens and becomes as straight as a rail. Need 6" full round nose pliers and flush cutting diagonal pliers to do a workman like wiring job.
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The tuner with the rotor, select the large winding, generally the one with more resistance. Place that winding in parallel with the larger of the tuning condensers.

Use the grid dip meter to find the range of resonant frequencies or use a detector probe and a VTVM or scope to see the peak, wire the tuned circuit to an RF generator isolated with a 50K carbon resistor, common return is O.K. Any combinations of those instruments will determine the actual tuning range. If you get 500 to 1500 or even 1350khz than the winding and the tuning capacitor is a valid combination.

I suspect the lesser winding is the input coil so that would not use a tuning element.

The same technique can be applied to the smaller coil, You may find that the smaller coil resonates in the same range with the large tung capacitor and the larger tuning coil will resonate with the smaller tuning capacitor. They should tune the same or near identical range.

The antenna input coil (smaller) the lesser winding will be the antenna and ground.

There may be markings in the form of letters or numbers on the terminals of either coil that may help or nut determine the proper connections.

I do not think that the very smallest of the tuning condensers will be useful for your project, it may be useful to double tune the antenna input but it may prove to upset any dial calibration. It could be put in series with the antenna to make one time antenna long/short adjustments. There is such a thing as too many knobs... Federal 61 :roll:

Generally the end or physically outer end of the winding is the ground or return of that winding.

You will have to keep track of all the possible combinations. Only one hookup is correct for each coil to get the desired results.

If you took some very clear, will lighted images of the tuning coils, it may be possible to determine who made the coil from reading some of the radio magazines of the 20's. An ad will confirm who made it by name but the ad will not explain how to hook it up. Sometimes an entire article is devoted to using that coil/device, an article will tell how to use it. For now can only guess...

After determining the tuning combinations, next is to determine what tube types to use, then find correct value rheostats for the tubes. I do suspect the rheostats need cleaning. Any jacks selected, the use of a battery harness or battery harness terminals, a preliminary bread board layout with 18 ga solid copper insulated wire and a temporary panel. If the set oscillates provide the correct bypasses and/or move parts around. Refine the layout, test again, if O.K. fit a panel and a new baseboard, fit instruments on the panel and bus wire....

If you were copying a blueprint, fine, but your instruments would have to have similar designs to work as the blueprint demands and still may have issues that would require moving things around.

Many of the 20's radio magazines had complete prints in both schematic and diagrammatic, pre-drilled panels and even cabinets all available from vendors. If the plans were followed rather exactly, the set would work as the article said...

GL

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Sun 16, 2020 11:26 pm 
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smaller coil has Bruno Radio Corporation N.Y. Genuine Quartzite 5 on it . the larger regen assembly has "Bruno "77 Wonder Radio Sales Co.N Y City , so that'll give me some reading to do for a few nights lol , parts came with several pieces of square buss wire so hat a beginning also


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Mon 17, 2020 12:37 am 
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eddie clark wrote:
smaller coil has Bruno Radio Corporation N.Y. Genuine Quartzite 5 on it . the larger regen assembly has "Bruno "77 Wonder Radio Sales Co.N Y City , so that'll give me some reading to do for a few nights lol , parts came with several pieces of square buss wire so hat a beginning also
You could beg the services of our resident librarian egg.
He has the uncanny ability to mine information from the American and World Radio history sites at a much greater speed than I have been able to muster.

Ideally, a Bruno inspired circuit would be the one to use, a diagrammatic would be a blessing :)

Seems the circuit you are looking for is Bernard's Diamond of the Air

I gave "Bruno 77" a quick study and snipped this.
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By searching for Bernards Diamond of the Air I got a picture of the set. You can find the schematic...

https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-S ... er_page=10

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Bernards Diamond radio part III.png
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I have new #12 square bus as well as a variety of telephone jacks. Yes, #12 is larger than the more used #14 square.

With this information

I would say forget any Brownig-Drake clone. I would move to the Bernard/Bruno reconstruction.

If I can help further let me know

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Mon 17, 2020 12:53 am 
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Thanks Chas!! My eyes were already crossing from speedreading thru articles for this stuff and a few other projects going at the same time ,and keeping an eye on my transformers winding in another room ,lol, about time to relax and think about how fast the workweek ahead needs to pass!lol


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Mon 17, 2020 1:12 am 
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eddie clark wrote:
Thanks Chas!! My eyes were already crossing from speedreading thru articles for this stuff and a few other projects going at the same time ,and keeping an eye on my transformers winding in another room ,lol, about time to relax and think about how fast the workweek ahead needs to pass!lol


:D :D :D

Start a new post with images of your transformer winding setup in action. I think a lot of fellows would like to see it, including me...

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Mon 17, 2020 1:18 am 
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Lol, I thought about that earlier today, what section should i post those under?


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Mon 17, 2020 1:22 am 
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Eddie,

I think this forum is fine "Homebrew Radios and Equipment". The moderator will move it if need be.

You have a fine topic for the Bernard Diamond up and running, it should not get off topic about coil winding... Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 18, 2020 2:25 am 
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Hey Chas , Good evening , here's a little info I just found on the Diamond circuit. https://www.jumpjet.info/Pioneering-Wir ... 8_1925.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 18, 2020 2:45 am 
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https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/radiowire ... e_air.html another link,appears the Diamond is a 5 tube radio, one more than my box of parts lol


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 18, 2020 2:57 am 
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Chas , Here's the actual 1925 4 tube version of the diamond of the air .https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/radioworl ... e_air.html


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 18, 2020 3:56 am 
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Hi Eddie,

Good work.

The Radio World article appears to introduce the Fan to the numerous manufacturers supporting the Bernards Diamond of the air...

The RM blub tells of a more advanced model with resistance amplifier. By design the resistance amp need one more tube to gain the same level of amplification. IMHO resistance couple was known at the time of te 4-tube model. I beleve the public was simply encouraged to better another model to promote the sales of more parts.

You have the two transformers and four tube sockets so it is safe to say you have the makings of the 4-tube set...

Mining the RM article further:
Quote:
Improved Audio part: 1 transformer stage and 2 resistance stages. Output DC-free. The Amp can be used separately if selected by a double-pole double-throw switch.
It is a follow up set to the 4 tube 1925 Diamond of the Air.
The radio was designed by Herman Bernard of Radio World Magazine. First shown in the Radio World Sept 12, 1925 magazine it is named The 1926 Diamond of the Air. In the next 4 weeks of Radio World Magazine each issue showed the construction of the set and finally included trouble shooting. It could be built from scratch from parts available in stores at the time.
In the Dec 26, 1925 issue of Radio World magazine the 1926 Diamond of the Air appears as a Kit on a 2 page center layout for a price of $35 and shows all parts that were in the kit.
It is this data I was seeking for you:


The radio was designed by Herman Bernard of Radio World Magazine. First shown in the Radio World Sept 12, 1925 magazine it is named The 1926 Diamond of the Air. In the next 4 weeks of Radio World Magazine each issue showed the construction of the set and finally included trouble shooting. It could be built from scratch from parts available in stores at the time.

You need only download the four magazines, clip the article and print.

The articles should have the schematic, a diagrammatic (where to put all the parts, a drilling draing for the front panel, a drilling drawing for the tube sockets and transformer/coil mounting, finally, a parts list.

The previous post for the Radio World there is a line drawing for brackets used in the Diamond set to mount the panel and elevate the tube socket panel.

Note too the parts list is for the 5-tube set which uses Varos a version of the Amperite a filament voltage regulator. In RM's image of the 5-tube set there are no filament rheostats. It will be hard to find functioning Amperites and the clips to hold them. Also sets of clips that hold plate resistor grid resistor and coupling caps will also be hard to find to build a resistance coupled set.

The list includes the panel size (7 x 24) and well as the type and number of phone jacks:
Attachment:
Parts list D-5 brackets.png
Parts list D-5 brackets.png [ 234.61 KiB | Viewed 686 times ]

I hope the article for the Diamond build has much more details...

So, I think you are all set for four tube.

GL

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 18, 2020 5:48 am 
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Well, I put a bunch of those parts together, in which I would think it would work. Some parts I put in, just to use them. I am sure you can pick them out.


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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 18, 2020 4:04 pm 
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Mr. Highlander wrote:
Well, I put a bunch of those parts together, in which I would think it would work. Some parts I put in, just to use them. I am sure you can pick them out.
Highlander,

Here is the analysis for your sketch...
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For the Antenna/Earth:
- Avoid connecting the earth ground to the radio circuits. The antenna winding provides isolation from ground noises.

For the detector:
- Do not use a series rheostat to control the plate in any early battery design. Use a tapped battery and select the desired voltage from a tap.
- The rheostat for the detector should be at least 20 ohms, 4 ohms is insufficient voltage drop for a1/4a filament to control emission to the critical point in sensitivity.
- The tuned circuit return is to the +A for the detector so the tube operates in the non-linear region.
- Do not make the grid leak condenser adjustable, use a fixed mica capacitor of 250pf. If desired, the grid leak resistor must be at least 2megs up to about 8 megs, that, can be adjustable.
- Do not exceed 22-1/2 volts plate for the gas triode. Excess plate voltage will cause ion bombardment of the filament and poison it paralyzing emission.
- Do not test the 00a or the 00 in a tester that applies more than 22-1/2 volts plate.

For the 1st AF:
- Use 67-1/2 volts on the 1st AF plate if there is no "C". Return the grid either via a "C" or to filament negative.

For the Last Audio:
- Do not use a series rheostat in the grid circuit of the last audio, no grid current to create a voltage drop to be controlled. Use a tapped "C" battery and for 135 volts "B" about -40 volts "C"

For the toy 9-volt "B" battery power source:

For each tap taken bypass to B- using a 1 or 2 mf condenser. The high impedance of the toy batteries will cause cross coupling and howling in the circuits. The condensers shunt the condition so it does not occur.

O.T.

There is a HAM in Arvada who is webcasting RTTY signals, now been dubbed ITTY, (Internet TeleType) in Baudot code 24/7.
Need free software to copy to computer display. News is local and international from Reuters.

http://www.rtty.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Build me a Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 18, 2020 5:15 pm 
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Thank You Chas!

I added all of the rheostats (Except the 9 ohm for the filament). The one for the filament could be replaced by the 40 ohm one with a 40 ohms resistor across it.

For the grid leak, I would normally use a mica, but I wanted to use all the parts listed. But for sake of working, cheating would need to be an option.

The tuned circuit could be left out. Part Waster again.

I thought that the 00A could be operated on 45V. That's what I sort of gained from this ancient form .
viewtopic.php?t=32429

I did not know about the 2MFD capacitor.

Thanks for the tips!

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