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 Post subject: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Mon 12, 2021 8:33 pm 
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Location: victoria bc canada
I was fortunate to get a Reinartz type radio, im having a mind lock on the power supply- im using 22.5 v lithium and 45v 9v batteries for now, but have yet to hook up the power supply to test..heres the original hand drawn pictures. ive placed a red dot on the line im unsure of and will include the photo, will produce any pictures you need as im in need of some help. thank you. Mark.


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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Mon 12, 2021 9:51 pm 
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Are you asking for a wiring diagram for the 3 batteries you have, because the old diagrams show only 2 batteries?

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Mon 12, 2021 9:53 pm 
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What are the tube types in the tuner and the AMP? The tube type will dictate what the "A" or filament voltage and available current should be. The AMP overhead view of the parts seems to indicate a low value of rheostat resistance. That, would indicate that the tube is a 1 amp filament.

Suggest that the original hand drawn schematic be re-drawn as a schematic and much cleaner. That effort alone may make sense of that the "red dot" is supposed to do...

The early sketches indicate that the "A" battery is an 80 amp/hr lead/acid battery of 6 volts.

The "B" battery has two voltages the correct AMP voltage is unclear but the detector is 22-1/2 volts. The amp test seems to indicate "C" voltage is jumped out and the amp is running at 45 volts that is fine but performance of the AMP will be marginal suggest the AMP be at 67-1/2 volts with no "C" or 90 volts with a 4-1/2 "C".

That homemade "B" unit indicates it has "A" voltage, but may not power the required current for the "A" voltage... chas

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Last edited by Chas on Apr Mon 12, 2021 10:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Mon 12, 2021 10:03 pm 
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Joined: Nov Wed 09, 2011 3:55 am
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Location: victoria bc canada
Tuner tube-201a....... amp tubes 01A x2. tubes have all tested good. will redraw the original, i guess i thought it would be neat to try the 1923 drawing-dont know what i was thinking sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Mon 12, 2021 11:54 pm 
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Ive replaced the 201A with a good tested 01A , i wasnt getting good contact from 1 of the legs, . so now ive got all good 01A in the amp and tuner. heres the best i could do for the diagram.#2 my lines are not very good.


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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 12:52 am 
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Without having schematics or more detailed pix of the radio innards, its hard to be certain what exactly should be done. Shall we assume the 3 terminals on the drawing for detector and amp are meant to be the three terminals on the back of each box? From what I can see from you overhead photos, that's probably the case. Left to right on the drawing matches left to right when viewing the back of each box.

I see the early drawings a bit differently than what you re-drew Both early drawings read the same to me, but not the same as what you have just redrawn. It was common for a single B battery to supply multiple voltages by tapping between individual cells of the battery, and that is what was originally depicted. Like this:
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In your case, Duplicating the original drawing (as I see it), but using your 3 batteries:
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Chas suggests raising the B+ voltage to the amp to 66.5 volts (with the need for a C battery). You can do that with the batteries you have like this:
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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 12:58 am 
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What I drew cannot be relied upon. 1.5 volts isn't necessarily the right A voltage but rather is what is printed on the home-built power supply. What is also interesting is, there are 2 sets of "1.5V" terminals on that supply. At this moment we don't know if that means there are two isolated 1.5 volt outputs, or if there are simply two terminal sets for convenience of hooking up. Perhaps the two can be hooked in series for 3 volts of A supply. As Chas points out, we don't know what the current capability of the supply is either. So, I'm just guessing.

1.5 volts is probably a little lower than optimum but at least there is no chance it will damage a tube. Also, one of the pieces of paper you have indicates a partial C battery connection. But, there is no clear terminal depicted on the drawings where a C battery negative terminal is meant to be connected. If you can draw a complete amp schematic, it would help to clarify the question.

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 1:37 am 
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Location: victoria bc canada
Richfair - i can build any type battery for testing , i just had the battery supply on my table so i can put 9v batts in it for testing..i took pics of the innards of the cabinets, there is very old pencil above the terminals, maybe this will help ? ive built crystal radios, and 3 regen tube radios , in the last 20 years, so i can get around a old radio, just not that good. the b box 22 top picture is the one im not sure of...the schematics are excellent thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 2:46 am 
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Ah! Things are beginning to make better sense. The pencil marks are quite clear, I missed them in the earlier photos. So, my drawings are accurate with the huge exception that my drawings show hookup to the detector and amp terminals as if viewing them from the front panel looking toward the rear (like in your photos), not as viewed from the back panel looking toward the front.

As for the A battery voltage, Chas suggests 6 volts and I would agree. 201a tubes want 5 volts. Current draw for the three 01A tubes together will be 3/4 amp, not a much higher draw required by earlier tube versions, so just about any 6 volt storage battery or a decent battery eliminator should be fine. Start with the rheostats at full resistance setting, adjust accordingly for performance. This assumes the rheostats were originally used with 01a types (not earlier 01 types). For the B supply, try your existing B batteries (22 volt, string of 9 volts), hook them up as I draw in the middle or lower drawing. Compare which way gives better results (probably the lower drawing).

I believe the AES battery eliminator or similar supply would power this well.

Did that answer your questions?

edit: Chas got you covered

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Last edited by richfair on Apr Tue 13, 2021 2:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 2:50 am 
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The detector and amp will require 3/4 amp at 6 volts to properly light the tubes.

I can only assume that lots of experimenting receiving will come. With that in mind using an "A" battery of sufficient storage capacity is recommended. A 6 volt L/A gel cell of at least 17 Amp/hour. Ideally a 60 amp/hour if the radio was to be used daily and the "A" battery charged once a week.

Please measure the rheostats in both the detector and the AMP. If these are less than 4 ohms then the radio was built for 1 amp tubes.

The radio will work, but there will be very little control over the filament brightness of the tubes making control of them difficult even if the "A" supply voltage is dropped the radio will work poorly. It is possible to change out the rheostats if need be. Voltage drop also provides a minimal bias.

The 1 amp tubes are both hard to find and expensive much more for one tube than replacing the rheostats if need be.

The main repair problem with 20's era radios is failure of the audio transformers, these too should be measured for continuity with an analog ohmmeter. If any winding is over 8000 ohms the transformer is probably has a bad winding. The transformer can be repaired or replaced with an original or a similar 20's era transformer... A poor replacement may not provide a sufficient plate load resistance and will have distortion that will not go away...

The other problem is connections, both solder joints and mechanical joints. ALL should be re-soldered and mechanical joints loosened, wiggled and re-tightened.

See this for tube information:

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/References/ ... lash08.htm

I did not see a grid leak resistor, it may be hidden, if not the grid capacitor may have a pencil line on it as a leak. Some early receivers relied on tube leakage for a leak. The early 201 1 amp tubes had a porcelain base, a pencil line from the grid pin the filament + would work. With a late model '01a, a grid leak may have to be installed, 2 megs and up... The grid leak in a clip was often accessible, the user changed the leak to improve sensitivity for DX at the sacrifice of volume.

Of interest, the filament rheostat for the detector is a vernier type for fine adjustment of filament voltage. This too indicates the radio was intended for DX work where careful adjustment of the filament was needed to extract the greatest sensitivity from the detector.

chas

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 3:46 am 
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Thank you for your time -chas-richfair, this will give me a good footing to start . i was a mechanic for 35 yrs and i have bad trigger fingers and arthritis, so the least amount of soldering the better, but do have a friend that can help out. will check everything you said and go from there.will update as i go. Mark.


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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 5:04 am 
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A few internal pics. someone in 1921 or 1922 really did a nice job , im guessing this was a early Reinartz radio?


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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 5:45 am 
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Quote:
im guessing this was a early Reinartz radio?
Guessed correct! Two circuit tapped tuner with a separate winding for regeneration. Looks like a C-H, Cutler-Hammer vernier rheostat... Do check the audio transformers.

Sorry to hear about the arthritis, I have been fortunate that has not bothered me. My careers also spanned mechanical work as well as electronics.

If there are soldered lugs on the rheostats in the AMP, loosen the hardware and heat sink the lug. The composition insulator used in those rheostats is thermoforming and will either deform or melt if overheated from soldering... chas

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 2:37 pm 
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Looks like a nice radio

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 3:15 pm 
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Beautiful pieces! Even has switch travel stops. Any guesses as to why there are wire splices in the tuner? I assume that is what those things are. The B+ wire, in particular, is obviously pushed apart from where the builder would have formed it. The screw terminals are only inches away and could have accommodated whatever change was attempted. Perhaps for connecting a bypass capacitor across the B+ line?

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Tue 13, 2021 3:55 pm 
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richfair wrote:
Beautiful pieces! Even has switch travel stops. Any guesses as to why there are wire splices in the tuner? I assume that is what those things are. The B+ wire, in particular, is obviously pushed apart from where the builder would have formed it. The screw terminals are only inches away and could have accommodated whatever change was attempted. Perhaps for connecting a bypass capacitor across the B+ line?
Yes, ideal location. Put a some black heat shrink over a modern yellow cap to hide its 22nd century ugliness... chas

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Wed 21, 2021 3:13 am 
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After really going through the circuits cleaning resoldering etc , ive got the reciever tube working and 1 amp tube, through my multimeter checks it seems the transformers are up to snuff ?...gotta get the tube sockets up to par , if theres even a slight movement of tube in the amp its shutting down, i did scrape the connectors but more needs to be done. i have a question on the 3- 1/4 inch jacks on the amp, i did take apart a few early 1920s radios for parts,cleaned the parts, they needed it, there was green powdered mold on the wood bottom frames. got a good grid leak and cap but the mfd mmfd is something i need to look into before going any further, Im getting to know the radio better now ,the battery wires are drivin me bonkers, gotta get a battery eliminator..


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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Wed 21, 2021 4:29 am 
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The grid capacitor for the detector is generally 250pf for broadcast band. For a shortwave radio generally 100pf and for a long wave radio 500pf. The cap should not "leak" so all control of grid leak is at the grid leak resistor.

The combination drawing of the battery connections results in the confusion. Diagrammatic representation of the actual connections can be unclear...

A harness (battery cable) can be made that can incorporate jumpers from the AMP to th Detector then to the power sources. It can be laced or covered with expandable braid if need be...

The tube base connections may have to be re-soldered, especially the filament connections. That may improve the brilliance of the filament. Remake all connections in the filament circuits.

Emission from 1 amp tubes will fall off in time despite getting the required 5 volts. There is no way to rejuvenate the all tungsten filament.

UV-201 tubes are very pricey and emission is always questionable.

Changing to 1/4 amp tubes may give problems with control over filament emission as the rheostats will not have sufficient resistance to properly control 1/4 amp tubes... Some radio fans using a power supply will lower the filament voltage in order to get some control, problem is initial bias is lost, the detector will loose sensitivity and the AMP may have some distortion.

The correct way to change to all 1/4 amp tubes is to replace the rheostats with values that will properly control the tubes. That, can be difficult, as rheostats can have different mounting schemes...

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Wed 21, 2021 7:21 am 
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Thanks Chas , all your info will be used going forward , i already pulled the contacts like you said- sanded them and put them back in, and guess what, ive got all 3 tubes glowing better now, i made up a 18650 string for 7.2v, only for testing- and the tubes are better now, cant believe the transformers work , i have to get my signal generator back, friend has it from last year, then some better understanding will commence, i did pull some nice rheostats from a homegrown 1924 ? 3 tube set, will put up a pic.


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 Post subject: Re: Homebuild Reinartz tuner amp.
PostPosted: Apr Wed 21, 2021 5:44 pm 
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I made up a 18650 string for 7.2v, only for testing- and the tubes are better now, cant believe the transformers work
Burning the 201a tubes with 7.5 volts is O.K. to "wake-up" the filaments is a good . However, do not connect anything to the grid or plate of such a tube as to complete a circuit during the burn. The greater emission that is possible at the brighter filament makes is easy to draw off thorium from the surface of the filament thus depleting the useful emitting surface.

What is the resistance of the three replacement rheostats and what is the resistance of the existing rheostats?

Are the replacements all alike?

Measure the DC resistance of the audio transformers using an analog meter and post here. Any winding that measures "open" or very high resistance, say greater the 12k ohms is a bad winding. The transformer must be either repaired or replaced... chas

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