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 Post subject: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 2:53 am 
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I had been incorrect in thinking there was a difference in the Hammond HX-124 audio interstage transformers and the AES P-T156 transformer.
Apparently they are identical. They have same ratio, impedance and resistance. They are both made after the old A53-C.


AES is cheaper!!


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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 3:32 am 
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They might actually be the same thing. At one time AES sold Hammond transformers; perhaps they still do but under their own number.

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 4:45 am 
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I wonder if the Hammond and the AES have the same core winding (same number of turns). Other differences, are the AES is made in mexico,and the Hammond is made in canada. The AES has the plastic coil bobbin showing, whereas the Hammond does not.

When fixing AFT's I always used the Hammond as the spec was very close to the originals. I have used the AES, and they are good if you are shopping on price.

I wonder if Mr. Carlson would do an in depth analysis on these AFTS's

Stancor A53C, ARBE, AES, Hammond.

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 7:20 am 
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I see a lot of Hammond products that are not made in Canada, but in the "Middle Kingdom", at least that's where the Mouser listings say some of them are from. Edcore is another company that manufactures replacements, but I think you have to buy from them directly. The specs are likely to be similar since they are based on inductance, and current ratings, they have to be in the ballpark or they will not perform properly. If I am not mistaken AES still sells Hammond transformers, so clearly these are not rebranded.
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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 12:21 pm 
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There was talk a few years ago about AES discontinuing their "use your own iron" replacement coils. I bought a bunch of them for my Crosleys and Radiola 3/3A's (which I think they were originally intended). I've used three so far with satisfactory results, and still have about seven left. BTW-where the hell is the "Middle Kingdom"?? I may wish to emigrate :)

Dale


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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 1:12 pm 
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Middle Kingdom, China?

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 3:28 pm 
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Seems like we're having lots of discussion on the PT156
(A53) series audios. JMHO and MO, they work and work
well in MOST battery set/early AC sets. They're reasonably
priced and easily available.

I think a lot of enthusiasts just want to hear the set play.
and restore it to a working set.


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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 3:56 pm 
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This posting from Rogerola and his experience with replacing audio transformers. The resolution is near the end of the post.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=384657&p=3274618#p3274618

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 4:09 pm 
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mrx wrote:
Middle Kingdom, China?


"The "Middle Kingdom" is a period of time during the history of Ancient Egypt. It lasted from 1975 BC to 1640 BC."

The ancient Egyptians were way ahead of their time and were particularly noted for the quality of their transformers!

I guess we aren't allowed to use the word China anymore?!


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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 4:28 pm 
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Location: Bristol TN 37620
Chas,

Yes, you're right! The PT156 doesn't work great in ALL
applications like Superhetrodynes or early AC sets.
However in my experience, and mine only, it works well
with a basic TRF, or regenerative set.

JMHO


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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 4:45 pm 
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Location: Kingwood, Texas
Many of the Hammond transformers I’ve purchased over the past couple of years are clearly marked, “Made in China”. While they work fine, in my opinion they don’t exhibit the fit and craftsmanship of the Canadian made versions.

Darrell


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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 4:55 pm 
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hbr nut wrote:
Many of the Hammond transformers I’ve purchased over the past couple of years are clearly marked, “Made in China”. While they work fine, in my opinion they don’t exhibit the fit and craftsmanship of the Canadian made versions.

Darrell
I think many of their power transformers are still made in Canada. I suspect the production of smaller transformers has been offshored. But if they work and are going to be hidden in a can, I'm going to use them without worrying about how they look.


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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 5:27 pm 
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brnhornet52 wrote:
Chas,
Yes, you're right! The PT156 doesn't work great in ALL applications like Superhetrodynes or early AC sets. However in my experience, and mine only, it works well with a basic TRF, or regenerative set.
JMHO
I can only voice from others past experiences. I used a A-53 in a two tube radio long ago that I no longer have and it worked. Since that time I have either rebuilt the OEM transformers using extracted windings from OEM or used a working OEM transformer.

In reading others experiences, I have considered why the A-53 clones work in some sets and not in others. I believe it has to do with how the filaments are controlled. The RCA Catacomb it is a single control for the entire radio "like, but not identical" a modern radio. In other radios there are multiple filament controls, that allows for optimizing the gain in almost all stages. Meaning the gain can be reduced to accommodate the lower DC plate resistance of the A-53. The 20's battery set AF amp should reproduce clearly up to the point where there is clipping from excessive signal voltage exiting the last audio. If the 2nd audio transformer does not have sufficient DC plate resistance the 1st AF tube will be in distortion at a lower signal level. Turning down the filament gives some control so does lowering the plate voltage and adjusting the C voltage. This action is almost an "automatic" response" for the radio fan. Alter the voltages to get desired results. The '53 works in that environment. A similar occurrence is the loading on the detector plate. Grid leak detectors are known to have distortion, more or less depending how they are adjusted. The value of the DC plate resistance of the first AF transformer is more important as well as the impedance. Detectors in a regenerative circuit suggest a plate impedance of at least 30k or more.. The desired signal in a sensitive detector setting, like the gas detector also require a high ratio transformer as the signal is so low often 5:1 or more if the radio fan desires narrow fidelity for CW...

These are not my conclusions or theories :roll: but can be found in many articles in 20's era radio magazines at WRH and yes there were poor transformers back then too.

I concur, the the A-53 and its clones are cost alternate to not having a functioning radio. Better choices are the Hammond for Radiola III or the bobbins wound by/from ARBE-III. It is too bad that those in the recent past that have rewound 20's era transformers either have discontinued are are in some sort of production limbo...

I have a '99 based homemade regenerative radio that is to become a transformer experimental set but have not been able to move further on it this Summer. (no time). I am repositioning the components to accept and mount any variety of audio transformers. The pine breadboard will work fine... Who cares about extra holes... The intent is to use simple test equipment to evaluate the results. including my "tin" ears... I have a number of transformers including such, Amertran, Freed, Peerless, Federal, Kellogg, ACME, Coto, Chelsea, Stromberg-Carlson, Karas, General Radio, others and a "genuine" Stancor A-53. I will see what happens in a dynamic environment...

O.T. I had often wondered why many of the 20's era "B" supplies had compression rheostats to control the "B" voltages, twiddle 'till the radio sounds good...

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 5:58 pm 
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Posts: 6896
Location: Bossier City, Louisiana
I am presently restoring a Radiola Grand with WD-11 tubes.
I will be experimenting with the Radiola III replacement transformer as well as the Hammond.

Not certain what plate load a Wd-11 is requiring. I will check my resources.

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 3825
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Chas wrote:
brnhornet52 wrote:
Chas,
Yes, you're right! The PT156 doesn't work great in ALL applications like Superhetrodynes or early AC sets. However in my experience, and mine only, it works well with a basic TRF, or regenerative set.
JMHO
I can only voice from others past experiences. I used a A-53 in a two tube radio long ago that I no longer have and it worked. Since that time I have either rebuilt the OEM transformers using extracted windings from OEM or used a working OEM transformer.

In reading others experiences, I have considered why the A-53 clones work in some sets and not in others. I believe it has to do with how the filaments are controlled. The RCA Catacomb it is a single control for the entire radio "like, but not identical" a modern radio. In other radios there are multiple filament controls, that allows for optimizing the gain in almost all stages. Meaning the gain can be reduced to accommodate the lower DC plate resistance of the A-53. The 20's battery set AF amp should reproduce clearly up to the point where there is clipping from excessive signal voltage exiting the last audio. If the 2nd audio transformer does not have sufficient DC plate resistance the 1st AF tube will be in distortion at a lower signal level. Turning down the filament gives some control so does lowering the plate voltage and adjusting the C voltage. This action is almost an "automatic" response" for the radio fan. Alter the voltages to get desired results. The '53 works in that environment. A similar occurrence is the loading on the detector plate. Grid leak detectors are known to have distortion, more or less depending how they are adjusted. The value of the DC plate resistance of the first AF transformer is more important as well as the impedance. Detectors in a regenerative circuit suggest a plate impedance of at least 30k or more.. The desired signal in a sensitive detector setting, like the gas detector also require a high ratio transformer as the signal is so low often 5:1 or more if the radio fan desires narrow fidelity for CW...

These are not my conclusions or theories :roll: but can be found in many articles in 20's era radio magazines at WRH and yes there were poor transformers back then too.

I concur, the the A-53 and its clones are cost alternate to not having a functioning radio. Better choices are the Hammond for Radiola III or the bobbins wound by/from ARBE-III. It is too bad that those in the recent past that have rewound 20's era transformers either have discontinued are are in some sort of production limbo...

I have a '99 based homemade regenerative radio that is to become a transformer experimental set but have not been able to move further on it this Summer. (no time). I am repositioning the components to accept and mount any variety of audio transformers. The pine breadboard will work fine... Who cares about extra holes... The intent is to use simple test equipment to evaluate the results. including my "tin" ears... I have a number of transformers including such, Amertran, Freed, Peerless, Federal, Kellogg, ACME, Coto, Chelsea, Stromberg-Carlson, Karas, General Radio, others and a "genuine" Stancor A-53. I will see what happens in a dynamic environment...

O.T. I had often wondered why many of the 20's era "B" supplies had compression rheostats to control the "B" voltages, twiddle 'till the radio sounds good...

Chas


could it also be related to the number of tubes in the radio?

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Tue 14, 2021 9:19 pm 
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Andrew I think it has more to do with how the filament control is distributed between the rest of the radio and the AF amp, if the desire of the restorer is to expect premium performance the OEM or OEM rewind could satisfy. If it is a matter of the radio working the '53 and its clones would work.

Here is another "oldie" post on the topic...

viewtopic.php?t=91249

Still more :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=104695&start=0

So folks have noticed there is a difference...

Like past posts, the restorer must determine how well the radio will sound when the transformers are repaired or replaced.

If price is the pivotal object, then one gets what they pay for...

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Wed 15, 2021 12:11 am 
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Location: Bossier City, Louisiana
Does anyone happen to know the specs of the transformers offered by ARBE ??

Very interesting they offer coils with larger core sizes!!

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Wed 15, 2021 12:28 am 
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Dave Slusarczyk wrote:
Does anyone happen to know the specs of the transformers offered by ARBE ??

Very interesting they offer coils with larger core sizes!!


You will have to email them,as each core size has a different spec.

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Wed 15, 2021 12:48 am 
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Joined: Apr Sun 08, 2007 6:47 am
Posts: 4987
Location: British Columbia
DaleMidori wrote:
There was talk a few years ago about AES discontinuing their "use your own iron" replacement coils. I bought a bunch of them for my Crosleys and Radiola 3/3A's (which I think they were originally intended). I've used three so far with satisfactory results, and still have about seven left. BTW-where the hell is the "Middle Kingdom"?? I may wish to emigrate :)

Dale


I thought those were made by Hammond? I've only noticed the generic ones on the AES site fairly recently, as in the past five years or so. Yes the "Middle Kingdom" is the P.R.C, its sort of tongue in cheek vernacular for it. During the days of Imperial China, pre European contact, they often referred to themselves that way as they had no knowledge of anything that did not border China, to the East there was Japan and Korea, to the West India, Tibet, to the North Mongolia/ nomadic hordes, and to the South Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia.
In any event there is also a solid state option, published in the AWA Old Timer's Bulletin 20+ years ago, I haven't had a chance to try it though. I kno0w that using "sand" isn't a first choice but it may be the best option if a replacement transformer is unobtainable, or if you want to get a set going for resale, as the S.S components could be concealed, and the old iron left i9n place.
Regards
Arran


Last edited by Arran on Sep Wed 15, 2021 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: No difference in AES, Hammond, 20s audio transformers
PostPosted: Sep Wed 15, 2021 12:59 am 
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mrx wrote:
Dave Slusarczyk wrote:
Does anyone happen to know the specs of the transformers offered by ARBE ??

Very interesting they offer coils with larger core sizes!!


You will have to email them,as each core size has a different spec.



Thank you! I just did!!

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