Forums :: NEW! Web Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently Jul Mon 04, 2022 9:39 pm


All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sat 21, 2022 8:45 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2058
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL 34614
I have a 2017 Hyundai Elantra (in addition to the MINI), and yesterday, I was pulling into a parking lot, and it just stalled. No warning or anything other than when I his the gas pedal, nothing happened. The lights on the dash were as if I had just turned the key one notch - a few of them lit up. I coasted into a parking space, and I stated it right up as if nothing was wrong, and it didn't do it again on the way home.

After research, I found that it's fairly common problem on them, and while a cam or crank shaft sensor can be the problem, I saw lots of mention of it clearing up after an oil change. Then I saw one mention of if the oil gets low, instead of just turning on the oil light, it shuts the engine off, though you will then get the oil light, along with the battery and check engine lights. I've been trying to get my oil changed (I do it myself) for over a month, and before I can, something comes up that I have to take care of, and most recently I've screwed my back up, so Jiffy Lube might be in the future. But, after checking it, low and behold I was two quarts low. I guess I really have gone too long not looking after it, which isn't my norm.

I looked into it further, and the oil pressure sensor is on the front of the engine, but down low. When I pulled into the parking lot, you have to go up hill to get in. So I'm guessing the oil went below the sensor.

_________________
Michael


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sat 21, 2022 9:12 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar Mon 17, 2008 5:05 am
Posts: 5811
Location: Ashhurst, New Zealand
If you're using two quarts of oil between changes it's something more serious - how many miles on the clock?

_________________
Cheers - Martin ZL2MC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sat 21, 2022 9:37 pm 
Member

Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 6013
Location: Sunnyvale CA
TPAairman wrote:
I looked into it further, and the oil pressure sensor is on the front of the engine, but down low. When I pulled into the parking lot, you have to go up hill to get in. So I'm guessing the oil went below the sensor.


The oil pressure sensor is not in a place to sense the level, it is measuring the pressure in one of the high-pressure oil passages, usually right as it comes out of the pump. You *want it to shut off with no oil pressure* as a general rule, because it's probably better to coast to a stop rather than have it seize abruptly and suddenly lock up the wheels. It's sure not going to run very long with no oil pressure, perhaps as little as a few seconds. So with a failed pump or genuinely out of oil, you aren't going much further in either case - might as well save the cost of a engine replacement.

The level sense warning (if any) should go off long before the pressure drops, which only happens when you are down to a nearly completely empty oil pan. It makes less sense for it to go off on level sense warning, having a low oil level warning you should still have oil pressure because you are not depleted yet.

My guess is that you driving got it in a situation where the oil pickup really did uncover (maybe, relatively high RPM followed by a turn) and the pressure went to zero, causing a cutoff. When you stopped, all the oil ran back down into the pan and your subsequent drive was such that it did not have the same situation again. If so, you dodged a bullet, nothing will kill it faster than no oil.

Brett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sat 21, 2022 10:29 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2058
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL 34614
majoco wrote:
If you're using two quarts of oil between changes it's something more serious - how many miles on the clock?


88,000. It had 17,000 on it when I got it, and it's always used it's share of oil. Which is why I normally keep up with it better. But from what i've read, there's actually class action lawsuits against Hyundai for excessive oil consumption.

_________________
Michael


Last edited by TPAairman on May Sat 21, 2022 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sat 21, 2022 10:35 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2058
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL 34614
Brett_Buck wrote:
You *want it to shut off with no oil pressure* as a general rule, because it's probably better to coast to a stop rather than have it seize abruptly and suddenly lock up the wheels.


OK, but at least give me some sort of warning first that it's low, or at least, that being why it shut down. There also should have been some other point in the drive where the pressure got low. Again, how the light comes on then, or some other indication on the dash?

My whole point is that, the car stalled with no indication as to why, when they could have made it show the reason.

_________________
Michael


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sun 22, 2022 1:18 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 12228
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
Quote:
My whole point is that, the car stalled with no indication as to why, when they could have made it show the reason.

There's probably a trouble code locked into the all seeing all knowing computer. All you need is a massively expensive diagnostic scanner to find it. Actually a lesser one should show the code as well. But to put all that info on the dash ... would lead to an awfully complex dash. They probably figure you won't be running it that low on oil. Possibly there IS an "oil" warning light, but perhaps the condition occurred too fast for you to see it before it shut itself down.

Low level oil sensor .... it may or may not have one. If it does, that should have warned you long ago. Sometimes these things are too complicated, sometimes not enough lol.

_________________
Preserving the hist. of electronics, one boat anchor at a time! :)
https://www.bbtvtestequipment.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sun 22, 2022 1:52 am 
Member

Joined: Jun Mon 24, 2013 3:00 pm
Posts: 1864
Location: Champaign IL 61822
" But to put all that info on the dash ... would lead to an awfully complex dash."

But lots of cars now, like my Ford Edge, actually have a dash that's plenty complicated:
a high res LCD screen. And it does give error messages in English.

But they usuall say things like "Backup camera not working ... take extra care in backing. See dealer soon"

They all say "see dealer soon". It would be nice if they gacve a real error message.

The backup camera was $600. I had forgotten just how hi-res its supposed to be.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sun 22, 2022 2:31 am 
Member

Joined: Jun Sat 09, 2007 8:14 am
Posts: 5616
Location: Melbourne, Florida
Barry H Bennett wrote:
........
There's probably a trouble code locked into the all seeing all knowing computer. All you need is a massively expensive diagnostic scanner to find it. Actually a lesser one should show the code as well. ....


Advance Auto and Auto Zone stores will read the codes for free. You can buy a simple reader for $30 or less at lots of places.

RRM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sun 22, 2022 3:40 am 
Member

Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 6013
Location: Sunnyvale CA
TPAairman wrote:
Brett_Buck wrote:
You *want it to shut off with no oil pressure* as a general rule, because it's probably better to coast to a stop rather than have it seize abruptly and suddenly lock up the wheels.


OK, but at least give me some sort of warning first that it's low, or at least, that being why it shut down. There also should have been some other point in the drive where the pressure got low. Again, how the light comes on then, or some other indication on the dash?

My whole point is that, the car stalled with no indication as to why, when they could have made it show the reason.


There well may be no low oil level sensor - you check oil with a dipstick, ideally at every gas stop, but at least once a week.

The oil light is generally used for low oil *pressure* - which means, among other things, you may be completely out of oil. This has been on cars for many decades, the classic "idiot light" that just looks for pressure and turns the light on or off. DO NOT drive with this on, the chances of destroying the engine is extremely high - I have seen the results several times, including my buddy's Porshe 912 with melted in half connecting rods. I have never had a case where the manufacturer would shut down the engine entirely but it makes sense, if you can do it (and with a computer-controlled system is is plenty easy enough), because *you are not going very far* with no oil pressure.

My guess is that you were so low on oil that the oil pressure sensor tripped when the oil sloshed away from the pickup (and lots of oil was sucked up into the engine, and not in the pan. This apparently caused the engine self-protection to cut it off. It may or may not have lit up the oil pressure switch, but I would put a persistency check of maybe 2 seconds on it, so you could easily have missed it, and it may be masked when the ignition is inhibited, so it wouldn't keep failing after the engine quit.

There is probably also a "oil maintenance" indicator that reflect that your driving profile and mileage suggests it is time to change it, that will *probably* throw a master caution light and you have to sort through the maintenance menu to see it. If there is no level sensor, then, this will only indicate oil fatigue/degradation (based on your duty cycle) but not tell you anything about the oil level.

Modern vehicles have A LOT of moderately complex logic to make it work and perform the various functions. In many cases, the same or similar functions could be and used to be implemented without a computer, but it's easier to integrate all the functions in the computer rather than try to make multiple external systems all interact properly. This permits arbitrary complexity, without an analyzer you would not be able to figure it out. I would bet a fair bit of money that this incident was recorded and you could see exactly what happened.

BUT, the very obvious likelihood is that you ran it out of oil, which has been a problem since Mr Daimler's motor carriage was new. In previous incidents, this might have caused you to destroy the engine (as it has many, many times in similar situations). Your engine computer logic appears to have protected you and, good thing because you *still have a working engine*.

I agree with the comments above that there should be no issue with running out of oil on a 5-year-old vehicle, you should definitely figure out how it's getting out - either leaking out, or burning out - because on a completely tight and properly running engine it might take you 300,000 miles to burn out that much, and I doubt I have ever run out that much, total, in my street cars for the last 47 years I have been driving!

Brett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Sun 22, 2022 3:53 am 
Member

Joined: Jun Sat 09, 2007 8:14 am
Posts: 5616
Location: Melbourne, Florida
Getting two quarts low isn't the same as running out of oil. The Elantra holds over 4 quarts. I'd get the codes read.

By the way, my 97 LeSabre once did the same thing you described in the OP but the dollar sign lamp lit. Cam position sensor - $300.

RRM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Mon 23, 2022 1:38 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2058
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL 34614
As far as codes in the computer, it has no codes stored, at least, no standard OBD codes. I have a scanner and checked. I would think there should be, but that's what it shows. On the MINI, I have another scanner specific to BMW (MINI being their brand) because aside from the standard OBDII codes, they have their own set of codes. I can't find where Hyundai has done that, so a standard scanner should catch whatever is there.

_________________
Michael


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Mon 23, 2022 2:01 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar Sun 11, 2007 6:55 am
Posts: 12850
Location: Mission Viejo, southern California
Retired Radio Man wrote:
Getting two quarts low isn't the same as running out of oil. The Elantra holds over 4 quarts.
Just "over 4" means it it may be close to 50% low! That certainly seems like greatly excessive oil consumption.

_________________
Author: Illustrated Practical Asbestos - hardcover, paperback & Kindle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Mon 23, 2022 5:26 pm 
Member

Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 6013
Location: Sunnyvale CA
FStephenMasek wrote:
Retired Radio Man wrote:
Getting two quarts low isn't the same as running out of oil. The Elantra holds over 4 quarts.
Just "over 4" means it it may be close to 50% low! That certainly seems like greatly excessive oil consumption.


If it is getting burned, it is an astronomical amount and would be leaving clouds of smoke. That's also a profuse leak.

Oil is amazing stuff, even a little bit of it goes a long way, when it leaks, it tends to get everywhere and takes very little to make a big smoke cloud.

Brett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Mon 23, 2022 5:35 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec Mon 08, 2008 8:27 pm
Posts: 12173
Location: alameda,CA
Your car was recently mentioned as a whole slew of Hyundai cars that a part of a MASSIVE class action lawsuit. The engines in these cars dating from 2012-2020 use an excessive amount of oil. If your car is going through that much oil then I would be looking into joining the lawsuit. On top of that there are issues with oil migrating into areas it should not and this in turn causes engine damage. It will also cause sludging in the intake and valve train.

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-set ... nsumption/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Mon 23, 2022 7:11 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 6620
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA
With the general demise of conventional gauges in the instrument cluster and the near standard use of multi function displays....it would be great if the auto manufactures would give us gauges again and usable fault code reading responses rather then an AB choice is the CEL blinking or steady. We can have warning if not intervention for various outside vehicular threats and lane changes but can't have info on the health of the engine before it becomes critical. I want a full set of gauges again (virtual), not just an internet based infotainment distraction center or HUD.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Wed 25, 2022 9:28 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2058
Location: Weeki Wachee, FL 34614
Brett_Buck wrote:
If it is getting burned, it is an astronomical amount and would be leaving clouds of smoke. That's also a profuse leak.


It is a profuse loss of oil but no clouds of smoke and no spots on the driveway. But, also owning a MINI, I go through it with that as well, and it's a well known issue in the MINI world. There were some engines with the John Cooper Works upgrade (sportier engine) where people were burning a quart a week. But, MINI's tend to run very hot compared to other cars, and, well, this one is a BMW engine that just wasn't the best engineered. (Not every generation of MINI has a BMW engine.) The Hyundai on the other hand is a mystery to me.

_________________
Michael


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Wed 25, 2022 4:09 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec Mon 08, 2008 8:27 pm
Posts: 12173
Location: alameda,CA
As mentioned, using that much oil means your engine is actively damaging itself. Its not going to simply get better but instead get worse as more and more sludge accumulates and more wear is caused in the cylinder walls. I wouldn't use the MINI has a benchmark. No offense.... that has one of the worst ratings in terms of reliability. What kind of oil are you using? If its what the manufacture recommends, like 0W20 something, at this point I would consider using a higher viscosity oil. Start with a 5W-30 and work your way up. The fatter the molecules, the less of it will get past the faulty gaps in the piston rings.

Pay close attention to the class action lawsuit because if and when the company is found culpable, they may or may not advertise the recall openly. That was the case with my brother's Subaru, which was also a part of a class action lawsuit and when Subaru lost, they quietly recalled the affected models. My brother wound up getting a new engine block and ever since isn't going through oil like it was.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Wed 25, 2022 6:07 pm 
Member

Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 6013
Location: Sunnyvale CA
TPAairman wrote:
Brett_Buck wrote:
If it is getting burned, it is an astronomical amount and would be leaving clouds of smoke. That's also a profuse leak.


It is a profuse loss of oil but no clouds of smoke and no spots on the driveway. But, also owning a MINI, I go through it with that as well, and it's a well known issue in the MINI world. There were some engines with the John Cooper Works upgrade (sportier engine) where people were burning a quart a week. But, MINI's tend to run very hot compared to other cars, and, well, this one is a BMW engine that just wasn't the best engineered. (Not every generation of MINI has a BMW engine.) The Hyundai on the other hand is a mystery to me.


Do as you will, argue as you will, but - using that much oil is NOT normal and indicates a significant problem. The fact that it is also shutting off, perhaps on low oil pressure, is another indication of an impending potentially fatal (to the engine and probably thus, the car) situation. The warning signs do not get more clear than this.

Brett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Wed 25, 2022 7:35 pm 
Member

Joined: Jun Sat 09, 2007 8:14 am
Posts: 5616
Location: Melbourne, Florida
The more I read about the stupid problems with newer cars the better my 97 LeSabre looks. It has over 180K miles, gets 30 mpg on the highway and uses maybe 1/2 quart of oil between changes (3-5K miles).

I had a couple of Elantra's as rental cars a few years ago and except for being the second noisiest cars I've ever driven (Hyundai Accent is number one) and kind of small they were OK.

Consumer Reports rates the 2014-2018 Elantras as much better than average. Guess they don't count needing an oil truck following you as bad.

RRM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hyundain geniusness.
PostPosted: May Wed 25, 2022 8:48 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar Sun 11, 2007 6:55 am
Posts: 12850
Location: Mission Viejo, southern California
Remember, Consumer Reports surveys ONLY their subscribers, not a sufficiently large random sample of owners.

I also agree - that much oil usage, and in a four cylinder engine, indicates leaks, or excessive consumption, or both.

_________________
Author: Illustrated Practical Asbestos - hardcover, paperback & Kindle


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 25 posts ]  Moderator: Alan Voorhees Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Adam Vaughn, linick and 21 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  




































Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB