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 Post subject: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Wed 15, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Location: Southwestern,Ontario Canada
Just saw this on slashdot and thought it was notable to post.
https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/ ... egislation
Tony


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Wed 15, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Litchfield Minnesota USA
I like that idea. I like the idea that Minnesota is one state going for this. I hope it happens. In my opinion a person should be allowed to obtain repair parts for a product they own and paid for, but the warranty is gone. Setting batteries on fire shouldn't be an excuse for the company that sells the product because the company has nothing to do with the setting on fire. They need a better excuse.
Their real reason for being against it is that they want to sell more cell phones and other similar electronic toys.

Mark D.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Wed 15, 2017 9:41 pm 
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If anyone on here watches technician Louis Rossman on youtube, you will know that he has put a lot of effort into getting this bill passed. It would indeed be great to have that passed. Currently the smartphone and general electronic repair world is fueled by technicians finding repair tricks the hard way.

According to Louis Rossman, during a hearing he witnessed an Apple representative argue that by repairing their laptop boards (in this case by adding a small wire bridge) it would turn their laptops into "PCs" and they wouldn't be Apple brand products anymore. O_o

It seems apple doesn't really have any other excuse but their own interests. A company should be allowed to make money and do whatever they think is best for them but that should stop when it comes to what a costumer can do with a product he or she has already bought.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Wed 15, 2017 11:13 pm 
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Location: Detroit, MI USA
Once a product is out of warranty, the owner should always have the right to have it serviced by a technician of their choice, or repair it themselves if they can prove they have the background and skill to do the work properly. This has been an issue for decades, with some electronic manufacturers refusing to release schematics or sell repair parts to anyone other than their "factory authorized" service centers.

Currently, auto manufacturers are trying a similar ploy to prevent vehicle owners from having their cars serviced by independent mechanics, claiming that the release of wiring diagrams or diagnostic software for their recently produced vehicles is a violation of copyright laws which protect their interests.

Bottom line, consumers should be aware and never purchase products of manufacturers who will not support independent shops doing repair work, or provide service data and parts to other than authorized service centers.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 12:55 am 
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Location: Montvale NJ, 07645
It should be a Federal law. So many products are put to the curb because there are no parts available. I have had countless instances where parts were either not available, or the price was so outrageous that you could purchase a new item for a minimal amount more. The companies force you to purchase new, or call their "factory service"- if it is available.

Just to defend Apple, they supply superior support of their products, but they seem to be the exception- and you pay for that service when you purchase one of their products.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 1:32 am 
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Location: Houston, texas
I have worked for two companies for a total of 35 years, one for 25 years and the other for 10 years.
The actual practice is to discontinue parts availability to force customers to buy new. Except what happens is the customer get mad and buys from the competitor.
Parts support is listed at 5 or rarely 7 years and before that time limit, parts sort of disappear on the shelf because not enough spares were ever made.

Of course one competitor was even worse, when the 5 year 'clock bell went off' The parts department came with a trash barrels with wheels and dumped all the parts that were unique to that system.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 3:12 am 
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
What a classic waste of time!

In order to make an iPhone "repairable" it would have to be 4 times larger than current versions. Electronic devices are designed to be manufacturable and reliable. You don't plan on failure. Can you imagine the liability of having a consumer try to unsolder a specially-fitted lithium battery?

These products have to be as compact as possible to get them to work at such high speeds. You can't have 3 inch wires or sockets or screw terminals! They are built with robotic "pick and place" equipment. Does your lab or shop have robots?

Zenith made radios "repairable" because they had to be repaired. Tubes wore out, electrolytics dried out, hand wiring often caused cold solder joints. No one could envision that in 5 years you would want to retire your Zenith to get better technology.

Apple can't make money by designing products for techs or consumers who want to keep old technology functioning.

Maybe Apple could start designing with TO-5 transistors in sockets and get rid of those pesty surface mount ICs?

I am an old guy; I worked in a TV/Radio repair shop while in college. But I recognize that the world has moved on!

Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 4:10 am 
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Mr. Detrola wrote:
Once a product is out of warranty, the owner should always have the right to have it serviced by a technician of their choice, or repair it themselves if they can prove they have the background and skill to do the work properly.

I can't agree with that premise. Once I own something, why the hell do I have to prove anything to anyone if I want to work on it?
Rich, W3HWJ wrote:
What a classic waste of time!

In order to make an iPhone "repairable" it would have to be 4 times larger than current versions.

They are built with robotic "pick and place" equipment. Does your lab or shop have robots?

Apple can't make money by designing products for techs or consumers who want to keep old technology functioning.

Maybe Apple could start designing with TO-5 transistors in sockets and get rid of those pesty surface mount ICs?

You are saying that a "shadetree mechanic" doesn't have the ability or equipment to effect a repair on an iPhone, so what's the harm of state governments requiring companies to make available service and repair literature and parts?

In fact they could make an extra profit selling items that in the vast majority of cases won't be used, and the "repairer" will end up buying a new one anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 4:15 am 
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Rich, W3HWJ wrote:
What a classic waste of time!

In order to make an iPhone "repairable" it would have to be 4 times larger than current versions.


This is not completely true. A lot of phones need new batteries, like my iPhone 4 did. It is very replaceable. Problem is that Apple will not sell new batteries for it, and I was not able to find a new generic one on the aftermarket. They want $80+ for a new one installed, and the turn around time is up to 2 weeks. I run a business and can't be without a phone for a day, let alone 2 weeks. I ended up forced into purchasing a new iPhone 6 to replace it.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 4:35 am 
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Paraphrasing Mr. Rogers: "Can you say 'product liability attorney'?"

Making parts and data available could be construed as acknowledging that after-market repairs might be legitimate.

Apple makes a design for maybe a year. They buy millions of components and store them on tape/reel or ammo belts. So they should pay someone to break up a tape into little bags for shade tree mechanics? If a component is not needed for the next generation, Apple cleans out its stock, never to use that part again.

Quote:
In fact they could make an extra profit selling items that in the vast majority of cases won't be used, and the "repairer" will end up buying a new one anyways.


The cost of setting up a logistics and shipping system would wipe out any profit. Apple is not Radio Shack (thanks be!).

What happens when you buy an Apple IC and replace it and your phone still doesn't work? Whose fault?

What happens when you replace a battery and kill your phone? Whose fault?

Quote:
Problem is that Apple will not sell new batteries for it, and I was not able to find a new generic one on the aftermarket. They want $80+ for a new one installed, and the turn around time is up to 2 weeks.


If Apple installs it, it has to work. If you install it, it's your problem.


It isn't 1965 any more!

Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 4:55 am 
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Rich, W3HWJ wrote:
Paraphrasing Mr. Rogers: "Can you say 'product liability attorney'?"

Making parts and data available could be construed as acknowledging that after-market repairs might be legitimate.


If state law requires them to make available parts and data, I would believe that would shield them from any litigation involving someone getting injured from...What, a Lithium battery? These aren't even AC line-operated devices.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 6:28 am 
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Another great reason to move offshore.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 6:57 am 
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Scott wrote:
Taking these effective pre workout supplements should be a Federal law. So many products are put to the curb because there are no parts available. I have had countless instances where parts were either not available, or the price was so outrageous that you could purchase a new item for a minimal amount more. The companies force you to purchase new, or call their "factory service"- if it is available.

Just to defend Apple, they supply superior support of their products, but they seem to be the exception- and you pay for that service when you purchase one of their products.


True they do give good support but that's because they#re profit margins are so high and they charge through the roof for every little extra.


Last edited by LonGrey on Apr Sat 17, 2021 11:18 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Location: Albion, CA, USA, 95410
Rich, W3HWJ wrote:

What a classic waste of time!

Rich


Partly true, partly not. There are some things that CAN be repaired. Nobody is suggesting that we go back to DIP IC's in an iphone. But there are things that can be repaired and if they can be and the owner wants to, why shouldn't they be allowed? As with all equipment, the factory warranty is void as soon as you open the case, thus ends their liability. And these laws go beyond iphones and include many other devices that can and should be repaired if the owners desire to do so. It isn't a question of clinging to a long gone past.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 4:29 pm 
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Location: Litchfield Minnesota USA
For all the naysayers, think of cars and trucks. Sure, they have more space to work in, they're bigger, but as far as litigation goes there doesn't seem to be a problem. People repair their own cars millions of times a day. Sometimes they screw it up. It's their problem and their problem only. Yet, parts are available and information on proper procedures is available. Let the phone people fix their phones if they want to, it won't hurt anyone and there shouldn't be any sort of litigation necessary.
Mark D.


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 30, 2006 4:46 pm
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Cars and trucks have parts that wear out. Cellphones don't, except maybe for batteries. My wife's cellphone is 9 yrs. old with same battery. We have to replace the phone to get newer features and technology. Replace a lithium battery? Have you ever seen a video of an Li battery fire? Sure, that won't happen to you, but how about some one with less skill?

You CAN try to repair your phone or tablet.... at your risk and expense. Don't ask Apple to set up systems to support 100 or 1000 home "techs." Have you ever been to a flea market and seen old cellphones and tablets in a pile selling for under $5?

When you repair a car ignition system, maybe a 1K resistor has failed. But it's in a sealed black box and it's surface mount. Should GM have replacement resistors and give you the instructions for opening and trouble-shooting the black box? GM will sell you a new box for $100 or $500, but only a 5 cent resistor failed.... that's not fair!

Forcing "repairability" on manufacturers via Big Brother edicts is a losing proposition.

Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 6:21 pm 
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What happens to these iphones ?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/2 ... 57791.html

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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 7:07 pm 
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There are phone repair shops. I had the display assembly on my Galaxy S5 Active replaced.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Thu 16, 2017 10:58 pm 
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Rich, W3HWJ wrote:
Cars and trucks have parts that wear out. Cellphones don't, except maybe for batteries.


Headphone jacks, power connectors, mute switch, power switch, LCD screens that die, touch digitizer, dead camera unit, broken case, etc. If you look on ebay, there are already tons of replacement parts for iphones and other brand phones. It's not just batteries.

People already repair their own phones. You can replace just about anything on the phone except for the parts on the boards themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Apple to fight "Right to Repair Legislation"
PostPosted: Feb Fri 17, 2017 12:47 am 
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Location: Litchfield Minnesota USA
Cell phones do indeed have things that wear out. Or, if they don't mechanically wear they do go bad. My younger son, back around 2007 - '09 worked for Sprint as - you wouldn't guess it - a cell phone repairman. He worked at a Sprint store in the Twin Cities and repaired any number of phones daily. He replaced whatever parts needing replacement, including the touch screens that went south and the PC boards inside.

So don't tell me that cell phones cannot be repaired. He had minimal training. Basically just how to identify the problem and how to open it up without breaking anything.

And by the way, nobody is asking any cell phone maker to do anything more than just to make parts available to the consumer and a basic how-to, similar to what auto makers and many other product manufacturer's do.


Mark D.


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