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 Post subject: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Thu 16, 2021 3:11 am 
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Welcoming ideas here. Sure I could post this on astronomical forums, but you guys are smart and creative.

The plan is to put a removable equatorial mount in my front yard that I can set up quickly but have it permanently aligned. The design allows for one big fat axis to rotate counter to the earth's movement so astronomical objects stay in the eyepiece/camera as the earth turns. I want it big so that alignment precision is easier, so the long pipe below will be several feet long. Now I'm looking for ideas for the bearing surfaces.

Per the diagram, the concrete footings are capped off during the day. At night I bring out 2" pipes and tighten them into the footings. The 30 degree angled cross piece is also 2" pipe, pointing at the North Star (actually just off that and the celestial pole.)

I'm looking for off-the shelf solutions to a thrust bearing on the bottom of the 30 degree pipe, and then a bearing on the top end that will not only allow the pipe to rotate on its axis, but to allow up/down, left/right adjustment for fine alignment and can be permanently locked down. I could fabricate something, but off-the-shelf would sure be nice. Any ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Thu 16, 2021 3:45 am 
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I did a Google search for 'telescope mounting hardware' and got several hits. Good places to start.

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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Fri 17, 2021 1:41 am 
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How big is the telescope. Answers will depend on this. Back when amateur astronomers actually built telescopes, many mounts were made with car axle and differential parts.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Fri 17, 2021 3:51 am 
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It's an 8 inch scope. I've already designed and used two mounts for it, but they are so much trouble to set up.

I was keeping the scope particulars out of the discussion, because I'm certain that a 2-inch pipe would carry any of the weight and torsion that I'm going to be loading it with.

But if it helps I'll go ahead and describe the plan. I've never seen an equatorial platform like the one that I'm building. I made and tested a 1/3 scale model. With a spotting scope it worked just fine. It is a simple brute force version of an equatorial platform that hangs from the pipe. It doesn't straddle the pipe because there would be no room for the scope. So the platform hangs a few inches off the ground sticks way out on one side. As the pipe rotates, the platform rotates with it equatorially, carrying a dobsonian scope. The far end of the platform is driven by a screw acting like a jack continuously lowering that ended the platform at a proper rate. Because you don't start with it level, but pitched up about 3.75 degrees on the outer end, that screw drops that end. It can handle about 30 minutes of drive time (3.75 degrees below level) before being reset.

So the challenge is a matter of a bearing at the top and a bearing at the bottom or possibly two bearings at the bottom one to handle the horizontal component of the right triangle" and the other to handle the vertical component of the right triangle. Some Poncet type platforms have that kind of setup but the bearings are much smaller in diameter than the two in that I'm looking for. In the diagram you can see how I made the end of the pipe on the downside pointed, because if it were simply a cone in a socket that was low enough friction, that would serve as a thrust bearing.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Fri 17, 2021 10:10 pm 
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Not elegant, but fairly simple and "off the shelf":
Use 2" (or larger) galvanized pipe caps, and thread both ends of the RA axis pipe to match. Weld (or otherwise fix permanently) the lower cap at the proper angle, and use the well-greased threads as a bearing for both thrust and radial. The upper pipe cap (removable) could be held (adjustably) in a suitable, fixed larger pipe fitting, with adjusting screws passing through drilled and tapped holes in the side of the larger fitting (like many finder scope mounts).

Do you have an estimate of how much your scope and platform will flex the axis tube?

I sure hope your plan works out great!

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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Fri 17, 2021 10:54 pm 
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Quote:
an equatorial platform that hangs from the pipe. It doesn't straddle the pipe because there would be no room for the scope. So the platform hangs a few inches off the ground sticks way out on one side.


For the life of me I can't envision this at all.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Fri 17, 2021 11:11 pm 
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hwhall wrote:
Quote:
an equatorial platform that hangs from the pipe. It doesn't straddle the pipe because there would be no room for the scope. So the platform hangs a few inches off the ground sticks way out on one side.


For the life of me I can't envision this at all.
Neither can I, but I have seen captive plastic balls used as a bearing liken to a lazy susan. Choose a high load plastic, UHMWP, space the balls with a ring of another plastic held in place with a bushing. Rattle that around if it helps...

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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Fri 17, 2021 11:30 pm 
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Quote:
The far end of the platform is driven by a screw acting like a jack continuously lowering that ended the platform at a proper rate.

Aha. I got it. They want to make a giant version of a "barn door" tracking platform with the tipped 2-in pipe acting as the hinge in the usual barn door device.
Thing is, with all the effort in setting pipe etc., etc., there's half of a big equatorial mount there already (the polar axis). Why don't they look at making something like a fork mount that they can just drop their optical tube into?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Fri 17, 2021 11:47 pm 
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hwhall wrote:
Quote:
an equatorial platform that hangs from the pipe. It doesn't straddle the pipe because there would be no room for the scope. So the platform hangs a few inches off the ground sticks way out on one side.


For the life of me I can't envision this at all.


You're not the only one! For those of us who have built equatorial platforms and equatorial mounts, there's a bit of a learning curve (literally) to envision how to counteract the Earth's motion at just one point on Earth.

Let me know if it would help and I'll post a picture of my ugly duckling scale model. It was simply for proof-of-concept and testing to see if a scope could follow the moon and keep it centered within the field of view. I cobbled together a few pieces like dowel rods, aluminum pipe, and insulating foam board for the platform. You can see the scope moving in in kind of an odd way that perfectly follows the Earth's rotation. When testing, I did not use a drive, I simply went out every 15 minutes and lifted up the platform end and shimmed it a little bit to make sure the scope still had the moon centered. It was just a spotting scope at 30 power, but I figure that if it can keep the Moon centered over a two-hour period, I shouldn't have any problem with a larger power instrument during just 30 minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Sat 18, 2021 12:03 am 
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SteiniteFan wrote:
Not elegant, but fairly simple and "off the shelf":
Use 2" (or larger) galvanized pipe caps, and thread both ends of the RA axis pipe to match. Weld (or otherwise fix permanently) the lower cap at the proper angle, and use the well-greased threads as a bearing for both thrust and radial. The upper pipe cap (removable) could be held (adjustably) in a suitable, fixed larger pipe fitting, with adjusting screws passing through drilled and tapped holes in the side of the larger fitting (like many finder scope mounts).

Do you have an estimate of how much your scope and platform will flex the axis tube?

I sure hope your plan works out great!


YES, this is the kind of solution I'm looking for. It's immediately clear how the pipe threads could serve as both the thrust bearing and the horizontal axis bearing. Richard Berry's book on telescope building has equatorial mounts that use pipe threads as the bearings, and I had forgotten that. The amount of travel longitudinally up the pipe due to the spacing between the threads adds negligent repositioning.

I'm thinking about using three-quarter inch plywood as the platform and reinforced with two-by-fours on the top side. That would probably be between 25 and 30 lb, and the scope itself is probably 20 pounds with its lightweight dobsonian scope. So the total weight should be around 50 lb or less that is shared not exactly equally between the two inch pipe and the driving screw on the opposite end of the platform. If it were equal, the pipe would get 25 lb, negligible deflection in my estimation. And I think it would actually be less than that since the scope is positioned further towards the opposite end of the platform and that driving screw underneath would be getting most of the weight.

]


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Sat 18, 2021 12:25 am 
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I am not sure I can picture exactly what you are looking to accomplish and I have been an active amateur astronomer and telescope maker for 3 decades. The drawing looks like a classic English yoke mount.
An equatorial platform is a platform that sits under an alt/az scope to provide eq tracking for a small segment of the sky for a half hour or thereabouts, so I don't know how an equatorial platform applies here.

I think using threads is pretty crude for an RA shaft and I would favor pillow blocks which are self aligning and have a set screw to secure the shaft that passes thru it.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Sat 18, 2021 12:50 am 
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Scott wrote:
I am not sure I can picture exactly what you are looking to accomplish and I have been an active amateur astronomer and telescope maker for 3 decades. The drawing looks like a classic English yoke mount.
An equatorial platform is a platform that sits under an alt/az scope to provide eq tracking for a small segment of the sky for a half hour or thereabouts, so I don't know how an equatorial platform applies here.

I think using threads is pretty crude for an RA shaft and I would favor pillow blocks which are self aligning and have a set screw to secure the shaft that passes thru it.


Yes, it borrows from both the yoke mount and equatorial platform. A yoke mount has two parallel rails that accept the scope trunions. I could do that but I really don't like those rails getting in the way. And there's the drive gears. With this platform I can use a simple Dobsonian with low center of gravity and simply drive it with a screw with the rate calculated in an Arduino. Then again, now that you bring it up, in this scheme there would be one quadrant that would be in accessible. That could be solved by rotating the eye piece. And I'm not using this for visual astronomy, just photography.

Maybe it will help visualize this animation of the cobbled up proof-of-concept piece. The movement is much exaggerated compared to actual use. The screw jack would be under the right end of the platform.

Attachment:
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Pillow blocks are a good idea. Some thought needs to go into the thrust bearing end..


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Sat 18, 2021 2:57 am 
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Ahhh. The 3d really enlightens the concept. Very interesting as I have not seen this concept before.

Pillow blocks would be absolutely fine for the thrust. The axial load rating according to SKF is 25% of the radial rating, so you will be fine. Plus they are self aligning. They usually have elongated mounting slots for a bit of adjustment. You could easily get away with sinking treated 4x4's into the ground and cutting them on appropriate angle for the North and South bearings.

You can probably pick a pair of pillow blocks up reasonably priced on Ebay.

But would it not be better to just build an equatorial platform?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Sat 18, 2021 12:42 pm 
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First of all, I am NOT a telescope hobbyist. I do however have an 8" reflector and I have moved it around a bit, playing with it.

My reason for posting is to wonder if you are maybe over building (a common problem among DIY'ers including me). For what your telescope setup weighs, and given that it will be assembled and then disassembled every time it's used, I would say that oilite bushings, or even high density plastic , as long as they are a close tolerance will support it just fine.

Is your motor going to drive the lift screw in one direction only?

If you put one end of your angled support onto a bracket with a vertical fine thread rod, you would be able to set the angle more easily so that your target stays centred in the eyepeice. Just a guess here, but if the angle is off, won't the target move sideways as well up and down?


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Sat 18, 2021 4:25 pm 
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John Bartley wrote:
Is your motor going to drive the lift screw in one direction only?
Just a guess here, but if the angle is off, won't the target move sideways as well up and down?


Yes to both.

Scott wrote:
But would it not be better to just build an equatorial platform?

I built a 2 foot square Poncet. I gave it away. Being that small the angles and curves had to be extremely precise, which is hard to do with the equipment I have. And when you cut the pieces they are cut, with no provision for adjustment. And then using the thing is hard because you have to align it every time you put it someplace. I suppose I could embed some pads with alignment slots or something like that. It's going on a corner of my lot that is freest of trees, but it's right where my wife parks her car, and it's in the spot where people would be walking so the area needs to be flush when not being used.

What I'm hoping to accomplish with this is to carry the two vertical pieces out to the site, drop them into the concrete footings, and then get the horizontal piece and set it on top of the two vertical pieces. Done. As Scott suggests with pillow blocks and as John points out in the posting preceding this one, I think that adjustment screws could be employed to dial in a fine alignment, finer than I got with the Poncet because of the scale. It seems that it would be a lot less work. Plus the drive mechanicals should be simpler than what I used with the Poncet.

Will I actually build it? I don't know. I might just build another Poncet but it might be fun to have something this novel that actually works and so easy to use.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Tue 21, 2021 5:37 am 
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That is an interesting project.
Rather than two concrete pads (each with a socket, as you describe) in the ground, perhaps embed three pads located at the points of an equilateral triangle. Orient the triangle so one of the sides is perpendicular to north. Build a light-weight A-frame (it could be metal or wood) whose base has pins that fit into the sockets in the two ground pads that define the north side. The apex of the A-frame would support the raised end of your polar axis. The length of the polar axis would be adjusted such that the plane defined by the A-frame is perpendicular to the polar axis ... so the A-frame would lean "inward" toward the south. You would need to do the geometry to suit your latitude and the size of your base and A-frame, and carefully lay everything out first on paper; but all told, this would form an inexpensive three-point kinematic mount, very stable and repeatable from one set-up to the next. For the very slow rotation rate you're dealing with, I doubt that ball-bearings are necessary, and I think a simple steel pin (perhaps 1/2" diameter by 1" or 1-1/2" long) at each end of the polar axis, fitting closely into a similar hole in a block of some sort of ultra-high molecular weight polymer (one at the apex of the A-frame, and another near ground level at the south end), would be more than strong enough and might work quite well. The polar axis could be 2" steel pipe threaded at both ends and fitted with end caps. The pins at the ends of the polar axis could be the shanks of 1/2" bolts sawed off and welded into holes drilled in the end caps. Or go with beefier bolts if strength is a concern.
R/ John


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Tue 21, 2021 5:44 pm 
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UV201 wrote:
That is an interesting project.
Rather than two concrete pads (each with a socket, as you describe) in the ground, perhaps embed three pads located at the points of an equilateral triangle. Orient the triangle so one of the sides is perpendicular to north. Build a light-weight A-frame (it could be metal or wood) whose base has pins that fit into the sockets in the two ground pads that define the north side. The apex of the A-frame would support the raised end of your polar axis. The length of the polar axis would be adjusted such that the plane defined by the A-frame is perpendicular to the polar axis ... so the A-frame would lean "inward" toward the south. You would need to do the geometry to suit your latitude and the size of your base and A-frame, and carefully lay everything out first on paper; but all told, this would form an inexpensive three-point kinematic mount, very stable and repeatable from one set-up to the next. For the very slow rotation rate you're dealing with, I doubt that ball-bearings are necessary, and I think a simple steel pin (perhaps 1/2" diameter by 1" or 1-1/2" long) at each end of the polar axis, fitting closely into a similar hole in a block of some sort of ultra-high molecular weight polymer (one at the apex of the A-frame, and another near ground level at the south end), would be more than strong enough and might work quite well. The polar axis could be 2" steel pipe threaded at both ends and fitted with end caps. The pins at the ends of the polar axis could be the shanks of 1/2" bolts sawed off and welded into holes drilled in the end caps. Or go with beefier bolts if strength is a concern.
R/ John


Excellent.

The A-frame and "leaning in" aspects could be useful improvements given the evolving specs I've been working with. I've been thinking that 2" pipe may be overkill for the main axis. I've realized it doesn't have to be longer than 3 or 4 feet, so it could take smaller pipe. But the supports need to be rigid, hence the 2" pipe or 4 x 4 post. Home Depot has some 1" pipe, 36" and 48" long, threaded at both ends, and they have flanges. I'm still thinking about using the pipe threads as bearings, at least on the bottom end with a pillow block at the top. The pillow block allows the pipe to slide through whereas if it had flanges on each end, they would have to be pre-installed and some method to attach them to the bearing supports each time. At first glance, the A-frame idea solves this, as they could be permanently attached so the feet of the A just get eased into place and bolted down. Second, I don't have to make an angled block a the top of the A, as it's already angled.

I get your concept for simple bearings and I agree they would work. But they are extra work I'd like to avoid when pipe thread and pillow blocks are available for cheap.

As for the drive screw, previously the concept was to let the computer figure out the turning rate. It wouldn't be constant, as it's subject to the tricky trigonometrics of turning. What I haven't stated before, and it's not obvious, but I'll reveal, is that the top of the drive screw doesn't stay at the same point on the platform. It traces a curve on the platform underside. For that reason it would either need to be gimbaled and with a universal joint at the platform, or could stay vertical with a two axis bearing on top, like a vertical roller bearing sitting on a horizontal bearing a the top of the screw.

Now instead of the drive rate being calculated by the Arduino, the turn rate of the screw could be part of a servo loop. The loop would consist of a reference circle that makes one turn in 24 hours. It's compared to the actual turning rate of the axis driven by the screw.

Using your A-frame idea, install a 2 foot diameter clocking reference circle at the top end just under the bearing. The circle is on a freewheeling bearing, that is, connected to the pipe so that it spins freely. Drive the circle with a low power clock drive attached to the A-frame. At tape/threaded rod drive is simple enough. At one point near the bottom edge of the circle is a Hall-Effect sensor. Visualize a second circle on-axis parallel to the clock reference circle. Not freewheeling, it's fixed to the polar axis pipe and has the magnet(s) that influence the Hall effect sensor. So the sensor will indicate exactly where the magnet is, either side of the sensor or in the middle. Now the Arduino programming is a simple matter of using the analog output voltage of the sensor to tell which direction the magnet is going and adjusting the screw speed to match. The biggest benefit to me with this scheme is to totally do away with having to place that screw at the exact spot.

My calculations show that with a 2 foot diameter circle 1 mm of turn takes about 47 seconds. At the magnifications I hope to be working with, Jupiter goes across the field in about 10 seconds. So the sensor would need better than 1/4 MM resolution. My understanding is that's quite doable with Hall effect sensors. I'm ordering one to check that out.

The two circles don't have to be full circles, only an hour or two segment. So that slice of the pie could be quite out of the way.


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Wed 22, 2021 12:00 am 
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I'm glad to be able to offer ideas that might be helpful. Your idea of integrating the clock drive movement on the A-frame is neat, and is the natural place to put it. FWIW, I recently installed a DRO system on my vertical mill. It uses optical scales and reliably/repeatedly resolves down to 0.00025" (a quarter of a thousandth of an inch). Simple single-axis systems are inexpensive and listed on the big online auction site. If a person could somehow find a curved scale rather than a straight one, and digitally interface with the readout to control a stepper motor, one would have all the necessary parts for a precise clock drive. But since curved sensor scales don't exist, what about a fine cable (like bicycle hand-brake cable) coming off tangent from the rim of your clock drive wheel, affixed to and moving the sensor on a DRO straight scale, then wrapping around a drive spool (like a capstan) on the stepper motor shaft, and then going to a soft long-extension "slack taker-upper" spring? Depending on the cable length and radius of your clock drive wheel on your polar axis, it would work for an hour or two before running out of room and needing to be physically reset. In essence a CNC system - but built as a servo loop, Arduino-controlled, as you described - applied to a telescope mount.
BTW, I suggested the steel pins in polymer blocks idea because of my memories from childhood playing with Tinker-Toys ... just plug in or unplug, capable of rapid assembly and disassembly.
Best of luck with this interesting project. Please keep us apprised.
R/ John


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 Post subject: Re: DIY Astronomical Equatorial Platform Bearing Parts
PostPosted: Sep Wed 22, 2021 1:53 am 
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Macrohenry wrote:
Welcoming ideas here. Sure I could post this on astronomical forums, but you guys are smart and creative.

The plan is to put a removable equatorial mount in my front yard that I can set up quickly but have it permanently aligned. The design allows for one big fat axis to rotate counter to the earth's movement so astronomical objects stay in the eyepiece/camera as the earth turns. I want it big so that alignment precision is easier, so the long pipe below will be several feet long. Now I'm looking for ideas for the bearing surfaces.

Per the diagram, the concrete footings are capped off during the day. At night I bring out 2" pipes and tighten them into the footings. The 30 degree angled cross piece is also 2" pipe, pointing at the North Star (actually just off that and the celestial pole.)

I'm looking for off-the shelf solutions to a thrust bearing on the bottom of the 30 degree pipe, and then a bearing on the top end that will not only allow the pipe to rotate on its axis, but to allow up/down, left/right adjustment for fine alignment and can be permanently locked down. I could fabricate something, but off-the-shelf would sure be nice. Any ideas?

You might be over thinking it. What is the weight of the thrust? I seen several ton machines run on 4 bolt roller bearing pillow block bearings. Grant it they were not design for that load, but will they wear out in the next 50 yrs? You can buy or make a bronze bearing with thrust face, depends on your needs.

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