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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Dec Fri 27, 2019 7:27 pm 
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Sam's parts lists typically put the lytics in the beginning with voltage rating.

I tend to order replacements for micas with capacitance 1000pF(=.001uF ) or bigger as those sometimes are really paper caps hiding in the packaging that micas typically use. Values under 1000 are usually real micas and usually don't need replacing (except in horizontal and vertical stages where micas can fail).


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Dec Sat 28, 2019 7:30 pm 
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Ok, so I carefully took out all the tubes, and put them in a compartmental box in order of their numbers on the sams guide, so I can keep track of where each tube came from easily. And I've got the tube tester up, and managed to zero out the meter.

It's a Precision 10-12. Recent ebay purchase, probably hasn't been used in some time as the first thing I had to do was replace the power cable that was dried out and cracking up. All tubes are making the short light light up dimly on the short checks. The numbers under fil cont, which are supposed to make it light, do make it light brightly, but the others seem to light it dimly quite frequently. So, either I have a whole lot of shorting out tubes, or something is off on this tube tester. Unless it's normal for the light to light up dimly at times. Perhaps I should start a new thread on this, since this is more about the tube tester than the TV.

Doing the read meter test seems to be consistently putting the meter in the good range for my tests, so that seems to be working. Although I think I hit my first definitely bad tube, v14, 6T8. Testing the triode moves the needle into the replace range, and testing the diodes pins the needle all the way to the top.

Also, I found a 6AU6 where a 6AH6 should be. Not sure if that was a replacement, or if something got swapped, but I haven't found a 6AH6 where a 6AU6 should have been, so...not sure about that. Thinking that's at least 2 tubes I need to track down so far.

But, I suppose I should really sort out the short testing issue first, now that I've determined it seems to be rather regularly showing shorts more than I would expect. Not sure how to prove/disprove the shorts tests, and then fix that issue. As I've stated many times now, I really have no idea what I'm doing.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Dec Sat 28, 2019 7:40 pm 
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Actually, I'm not sure what's up with the 6T8 tube. Running the triode test for a while, the needle slowly made it's way out of the replace ranged, through the weak range, and into the bottom of the good range. It sat warming up not being tested for a while thought, I had to hold the test button to get the needle to move. It did get into good, but the bottom of good. Probably still on the weak side.

But the diode tests pinning the needle all the way to the top of good, rattling because it wants to go beyond that range, seems not to be right.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Dec Sat 28, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Testing tubes with a tester that is unknown condition probably is a waste of time.
You certainly can get help checking the tube tester from people here under the "Test Equipment and Tools" section.
Here is a link to a page about that tester.
https://antiqueradio.org/Precision10-12.htm
Again it should be discussed in a post on that forum section if you want to go into it.

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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Jan Sun 05, 2020 8:15 pm 
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So the tube tester is working, the tubes are tested, a few weak ones, one with a short, so now I have a list of tubes to track down while working on capacitors.

I was hoping to begin capacitor work this weekend, but other TV related projects came up instead......the 42" Vizio on the wall of my office died. No power. Which gave me 2 options....buy a cheap replacement, 55" should do the trick, or move the 55" TV that is downstairs into my office and upgrade that to 65".

In reality, there really wasn't a choice....how can you say no to the opportunity to upgrade to 65"

Attachment:
new tv.JPG
new tv.JPG [ 59.06 KiB | Viewed 1243 times ]



That 12" screen on the Zenith looks even smaller now.....ah well....


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Jan Sun 05, 2020 9:56 pm 
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You might have found this thread about sources for parts before.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=201537
I've used ESRC, Antique Electronic Supply, Find-a-tube, Vauumtubes.biz and Viva Tubes in the past.
Some of those have higher prices than others, some cater to audio tube fans rather than a large selection. Since I discovered someone in the club I belong to sells tubes I generally get them from him (no shipping cost).

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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Jan Mon 06, 2020 1:28 am 
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Quote:
the tubes are tested, a few weak ones, one with a short,

Weak tubes may work just fine in the actual circuit, the shorted one is defiantly a discard.

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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Jan Mon 06, 2020 8:27 pm 
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Might have been possible to fix the flat screen....when they suddenly stop powering up it is often a bad lytic in the power supply...I like to check the easy stuff before spending money on a replacement and putting one more piece of toxic waste into the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Jan Tue 07, 2020 9:40 pm 
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Well the thought did occur that the total lack of power suggests something in the power supply, and it could be an easy fix. And I also have my issues with the throwaway society we have become. But I also did like the idea of upgrading from a 42" screen to a 55"....and from 55" to 65" downstairs. At least I waited for the 42" TV to die before replacing it. I've not thrown out the 42" yet, and perhaps it could make a nice TV for someone that wants it....but who is fixing these up, and who wants it?

Looking at a 10 year old LCD TV, leaning up against the wall, broken, waiting for it's fate as something on a garbage pile, or something to be fixed up, certainly fills one with lots of thought. How big and thin it seemed 10 years ago, vs how thick and small it seems today. How today I look at a 70 year old TV as a beautiful antique worthy of restoration, while I find it hard to imagine someone looking at a 42" Visio LCD the same way in 60 years from now.

Anyways.....if anyone wants a 10 year old 42" visio that won't power up, it's free for the taking.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Jan Tue 07, 2020 10:21 pm 
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The only Flatpannel I own (daily watcher for me is a Sony 32" HDCRT) is a 40-50" Visio a previous employer used as a break room message board 24-7 when it stopped powering up they got a new one and I asked for the old one after a month of sitting I opened it up found nothing wrong and tried powering it up and it worked fine so I reinstalled the back and it sits in the basement waiting for me to move and have enough wall space for it to be useful on a regular basis...


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Jan Sat 18, 2020 1:26 am 
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I've restored 6 of those Zenith Portholes and they can be challenging. All of the components are crammed in their under the chassis. So take lots of pictures and keep track of what you are working on.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Wed 05, 2020 10:35 pm 
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Once again, I have no idea what I'm doing. I need all the help I can get. Or more accurately, more help than I can get.

So, I had the day off. Took it off, and then my plans got cancelled, so I figured, I'd better do something today to not have it be a complete waste. So ok, lets actually change a darn capacitor, and see if I can get one done, and then just do one after the other.

At this point, I have managed to change a few capacitors in a few radios without completely ruining them.

So, I have my sams folder for this TV, which conveniently lists all the capacitors, and labels them on a picture. Excellent, what more could I want?

So, lets start at the beginning. C1. Which is on the power supply portion. And it's listed as being 15MFD on the documents I have. So, I unsolder it, unscrew it, take it out. Now, from what I've read, seen, and such, it seems most people will open up the electrolytics and put the new one in the can. But this one is covered in electrical tape. Ok....I have electrical tape, I can recover it. So I take off the electrical tape and peel off a cardboard cover that of course rips off. Uh....do I need to recover this can in cardboard after putting the new capacitor in it, and recover it in electrical tape?

I don't know. Have no clue why this is how it is, and what is required, because I have no idea what I'm doing.

I really need someone working with me looking over my shoulder to make sure I'm not messing this all up, but I don't have that.

I really hope I don't destroy this TV.

And, I managed to get the plastic base off of the can, but.....how do you get these open to restuff them? No clue what I'm doing, never done anything like this. I did find a youtube video of someone prying one open, but this doesn't seem to be like that one.

Also, my folder lists this capacitor, C1, as being 15MFD. I made my capacitor purchase based on this list. Well, when I peeled the cardboard off of the can, and looked at the info on the can, it is actually 10MFD.

10?

Yes, 10.

What the heck?

What do I go by? What's actually in there, or what's on the paperwork? Or are both acceptable? I mean, if the paperwork and schematics say 15, that suggests that's a workable value. But, if 10 is what was actually in there, why go with something different from what was working in there at one point in time? But, I didn't buy a 10, I bought a 15. I mean, I do have 10s....but then I'll be short a 10. But, then again, what other discrepancies am I going to find? Probably more, if I can't even get past the 1st capacitor without running into a discrepancy, so I suppose I'm going to have to order more capacitors at some point in this project, so.....may as well use a 10? And order another 10 to replace that one when the time comes to order more? Or is the 15 fine?


I mean, I have no idea what I'm doing, and don't know what to do at all when running into these things. And this is just capacitor 1. I can't even get the first capacitor changed on this TV, how in the heck am I going to ever get this done without destroying it?



Also, I did clean up the chassis a bit with a damp rag since it is rather dusty. The guy that helped me check the picture tube pointed to the flyback transformer and warned me to be careful with that. It does look rather dirty, but.....uh.....be careful how? I mean, specifically? How do I clean the dust and dirt off of it properly with care? q-tips? water? rubbing alcohol?


So.....yeah......this is so going to end with a destroyed TV if I can't find someone to work with me nearby.....


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Wed 05, 2020 11:04 pm 
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It sounds like someone replaced that capacitor in the past and used what they had laying around. For electrolytic caps you can usually get away with using a value that is close to the original value, but going up in value is generally better than going down in value. So use the 15 uf cap you bought.
The original cap would have been covered by a cardboard sleeve, probably a black cardboard sleeve. I suspect that the original sleeve did not quit fit the replacement cap and tape was used to make it stay in place. They covered it with a cardboard sleeve because the metal can has some voltage on it relative to the chassis. The cardboard prevents someone accidentally shorting it to the chassis with some metal tool or a wrist watch. It doesn't really matter how you insulate it but a cardboard tube would look nicer than tape.

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Last edited by Tom Schulz on Feb Wed 05, 2020 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Wed 05, 2020 11:22 pm 
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For the flyback, if you look at it closely you will see some fine wires coming out of the windings and going to some terminals. Don't touch those at all. For the rest of it you could gently wipe it with a cloth. Perhaps Qtips for tight places. It is alright if you leave it a little dirty. Don't use water or alcohol.

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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Wed 05, 2020 11:56 pm 
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If the metal of the can doesn't connect directly to chassis then the can has to be insulated many makes would write the value on the cardboard and glue the cardboard to the can...I've seen a number of cardboard covered cans where the can was stamped with a COMPLETELY different value than the outer cardboard covering it....The Metal can value is usually the one that is wrong... Atleast one of the cans with a kid match the cap had one lytics section in it, the cardboard had one can section on its label with a value matching the schematic, but take off the tube and the can underneath was stamped in correctly as a 3 section cap....the makers never thought anyone would look under the cardboard and used any can with anything stamped on it.

Cans where the outer metal was not connected to chassis used an insulator between the bottom of the cap and chassis and had to have the cardboard on top for safety...if the cap was used in a voltage doubler there could be 300V between the can can chassis and if you touched both at once with the set on you could die...thus the cardboard cover to prevent that.

You should take a step back and breathe this isn't that big of a deal.

Lytics are confusing if you have not done a few similar ones.

This set ain't the Mona Lisa, and restuffing caps is one of the least pleasant restoration activities especially for new comers. Don't ruin your life restuffing caps.... Instead buy some terminal strips like what is in your set (they still make them and Mouser and other vendors sell them), mount a strip or two near each cap, add the new caps to the strip, and then remove the wires from the old cap and transfer them to the strip.
If you are crafty on most sets you can find existing terminals in the set to mount the caps to....if the negative of the can connects to chassis it is often as easy as disconnect the positive lead of the original cap trace it to a tube socket or terminal hook positive of new cap there then hook the negative of new cap to nearest ground point.

If you relax and do some lead tracing comparing to the schematic (not the pictures but the wiring diagram) you can figure out a lot.

Rather than getting exasperated take lots of good before pictures you can use for reference, relax, go slow, if you hit something confusing take note, ask us and do something else in the meantime.

TVs are full of puzzles for a new comers to logic out, but once you have done 10 or more TVs it becomes second nature and nothing will make you pause too long.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Thu 06, 2020 2:01 am 
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Instead of re-stuffing can electors (with new parts that aren't really up to the ripple currents asked of them) consider using modern clamp-mount cans. You don't need exactly the same values, for example a 50uF + 50 uF clamp can will replace a 100 uF + 40 uF with no problems. You may have to drill some holes for the clamp.

Remember that tolerances on electros is VERY broad, often -20% +200% so don't worry too much about the exact values.

tubedepot.com sells a range of very good, inexpensive high voltage high current clamp can electros from the Czech Republic, intended for tube guitar amps. I have used lots of 50uF + 50uF 500v cans (in some cases replacing a 100uF + 200uF can) and can (no pun intended) highly recommend them.

https://tubedepot.com/products/jj-can-c ... -50uf-500v

You can also get NOS twist lug electros but they are much more expensive and usually need careful re-forming before use.

Ah, re-stuffing of wax paper caps: My quick, easy and authentic-looking method:

1. Hang a stack of them by the wire at one end from a rack in the oven, over a baking tray.
2. Cook at about 180 degrees C (medium heat) until the wax melts and the cases fall onto the baking tray.
3. Pull any remaining guts out of each case and wipe the dirt and wax offf while still warm.
4. Put new cap inside old case (with extended leads if needed)
5. Seal the ends with hot-melt glue.

Et, voila!

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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Thu 06, 2020 4:20 pm 
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Ok, now this calls all kinds of more things into questions and has my head spinning more.

The replacement capacitors I see most people using to restore TVs aren't suited for the job? Is this accurate? Is this going to cause problems for restored TVs?

That's great the source of can capacitors, but how flexible can you go with the values? You talk about using 50 for 100. But how far in what directions can you go? Is different values for can capacitors better than spec values of the capacitors I"ve been buying?


I just don't know anymore, I have so many different things conflicting coming from different directions, and I still can't get capacitor one done.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Thu 06, 2020 6:10 pm 
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JonGatarz wrote:
Ok, now this calls all kinds of more things into questions and has my head spinning more.

The replacement capacitors I see most people using to restore TVs aren't suited for the job? Is this accurate? Is this going to cause problems for restored TVs?

That's great the source of can capacitors, but how flexible can you go with the values? You talk about using 50 for 100. But how far in what directions can you go? Is different values for can capacitors better than spec values of the capacitors I"ve been buying?


I just don't know anymore, I have so many different things conflicting coming from different directions, and I still can't get capacitor one done.

Please don't get too stressed about this restoration. I realized it looks like a lot of unknowns right now.
There are different approaches to how to do things. Some will debate whether modern electrolytic caps are up to the vintage standards on things like ripple current but from what I've seen there isn't really much of a problem in most cases. Modern caps are much better designed than the old ones.
Unless it happens to be an application that highly stresses the capacitor I don't think you have much to worry about.
How much you can depart from the original part value depends on the type of cap and how it is used.
You can vary electrolytic values more than the others, I would not change the value more than a factor of two (-50% to +100%) on the capacitance and only if necessary.
EDIT: On second thought -20% to +100% would be a better range. Better higher than lower.
I also would not reduce the voltage rating but could go up 100% if needed. If you check sources like Mouser or Digikey they will give specs on maximum temperature (+85, +105 C, etc.) and lifetime. Those can be used to give you a relative idea of how sturdy they are electrically. The original caps probably didn't meet the +85C rating.
I wouldn't change the value of paper caps more then 10%, or the closes modern value.
I wouldn't deal with re-stuffing caps for you first go round, and certainly nothing under the chassis.
The set isn't going into a museum. Leave the old can caps in place and install new ones under the chassis. You will have to treat that first one you removed somehow to make it look like the original that should have been there. It originally did not have tape on it, tape never lasts long and wasn't used. Don't use tape on wires either.

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It's not the Destination, It's the Journey.


Last edited by Notimetolooz on Feb Thu 06, 2020 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Thu 06, 2020 7:14 pm 
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Notimetolooz wrote:
JonGatarz wrote:
Ok, now this calls all kinds of more things into questions and has my head spinning more.

The replacement capacitors I see most people using to restore TVs aren't suited for the job? Is this accurate? Is this going to cause problems for restored TVs?

That's great the source of can capacitors, but how flexible can you go with the values? You talk about using 50 for 100. But how far in what directions can you go? Is different values for can capacitors better than spec values of the capacitors I"ve been buying?


I just don't know anymore, I have so many different things conflicting coming from different directions, and I still can't get capacitor one done.

Please don't get too stressed about this restoration. I realized it looks like a lot of unknowns right now.
There are different approaches to how to do things. Some will debate whether modern electrolytic caps are up to the vintage standards on things like ripple current but from what I've seen there isn't really much of a problem in most cases. Modern caps are much better designed than the old ones.
Unless it happens to be an application that highly stresses the capacitor I don't think you have much to worry about.
How much you can depart from the original part value depends on the type of cap and how it is used.
You can vary electrolytic values more than the others, I would not change the value more than a factor of two (-50% to +100%) on the capacitance and only if necessary. I also would not reduce the voltage rating but could go up 100% if needed. If you check sources like Mouser or Digikey they will give specs on maximum temperature (+85, +105 C, etc.) and lifetime. Those can be used to give you a relative idea of how sturdy they are electrically. The original caps probably didn't meet the +85C rating.
I wouldn't change the value of paper caps more then 10%, or the closes modern value.
I wouldn't deal with re-stuffing caps for you first go round, and certainly nothing under the chassis.
The set isn't going into a museum. Leave the old can caps in place and install new ones under the chassis. You will have to treat that first one you removed somehow to make it look like the original that should have been there. It originally did not have tape on it, tape never lasts long and wasn't used. Don't use tape on wires either.

+1
In almost 20 years of recapping I've never had a replacement lytic fail unless I wired it wrong or something else in the set failed in a way damaging to the part.

Lytics can start to fail After 2-4 decades. They are not designed to last indefinitely like most other parts. However unless you plan to keep a set 30-50 years and want to guarantee you never have to pull the chassis again going for exotic replacement solutions for lytics is going overboard.

There is no one method to do a recap on a vintage set. Most restorers have their own variations on some general theme. If you are finding this difficult look at the different methods proposed and pick the easiest one in your budget.

The set doesn't care how you mount a cap, or what brand or style it is (though other humans sometimes do) as long as capacitance is within design tolerance (or close enough that the performance change isn't noticable), the voltage rating is the same or higher in the replacement and it connects to the other parts in the set electrically the Same as the schematic wiring diagram dictates (electrolytic caps also have polarity that must not be reversed less the new caps go bang and release smoke).

Google search Phill's old radios and have a look at some of the TV recaps on his site. His work is good quality and sound...


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith porthole 1949 TV - 28T962R - restoration project?
PostPosted: Feb Thu 06, 2020 7:47 pm 
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Alright, I suppose I was taking on too much with the restuffing cans stuff. I guess.....well....I don't exactly have room to stockpile antique TVs, and I'm running out of room for radios, and there are other hobbies I have that I'm far better at that I don't spend enough time on, so this very well may be the only TV I restore, so I figure, may as well do this one right. Then again, I often see things that catch my eye, and after going over the lack of time for projects I already have, the lack of space for radios I already have, and my lack of abilities....next thing I know, I'm loading something into the back of my car, so I suppose it's possible I may end up doing a few more. But it's very likely this TV will be a one time thing, although I'm sure I'll be picking up more radio/phonograph units, I'm itching to get a chairside Zenith with a phonograph.

But, yeah, fair enough, I'm probably going overboard with the can restuffing. But I'm worried about where to put/fit replacement capacitors. I'm still not all that sure what I'm doing.

What do I do about replacing the cardboard covering on the one I took out? Also, a 2nd capacitor on the power supply unit is also covered in tape, and that one actually has a smaller plastic base than the original, only 1 side is screwed in, the other has a piece of wire strung through the 2 holes that don't line up. I guess I can leave well enough alone with that though, kind of adds to the history of the unit, leaving a vintage replacement part in place (not wired in, of course, replacement capacitor underneath, since it seems advice is to abandon the restuffing cans technique). I wasn't able to find out anything about the history of this unit, but it's definitely not the original picture tube, and I'm finding replaced parts in it, so it seems I have a TV that was kept going for a while.


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