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 Post subject: Flash in 5R4 Tube & HD Replacements
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 5:59 am 
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I have a Johnson Viking II with two new 5R4GB tubes. Once in a while when I unkey the transmitter a 5R4GB will flash inside. It is likely due to the 10HY choke discharging. What would suppress the back EMF? I understand small value capacitors will suppress spikes and have two ceramic 250pf 5KV capacitors and two metalized Mylar .01uF 4KV capacitors. Would these work and where would I place the capacitors?

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Last edited by jimbenedict on Nov Tue 24, 2020 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 12:42 pm 
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try switching 5R4s around and see if flash stays in same tube. try replacing GBs with 5R4GYs. may not matter but GYs are usually used in the old ham rigs. try replacing with any spare 5R4s you have on hand. Make sure bleeder and filter cap are okay and original values.


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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 2:29 pm 
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K5UJ wrote:
try switching 5R4s around and see if flash stays in same tube. try replacing GBs with 5R4GYs. may not matter but GYs are usually used in the old ham rigs. try replacing with any spare 5R4s you have on hand. Make sure bleeder and filter cap are okay and original values.

Flash is always in front tube position no matter which tube is in the socket. Is not GB rated 3100 volts vs GY at 2800 volts? Tube arcs on top mica from plate to filament.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 3:07 pm 
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Jim,

Carefully check the socket for any signs of carbon tracking, the 5R4 series tube bases and sockets are very prone to this issue and I had to replace a socket in both a Viking 1 and Viking 2 I restored. A carbon track from the filamentary cathode pin to ground (often the mounting hardware for the socket) will increase its propensity to arc over and it will get worse with time.

If you have been changing tubes and the arc is always in the same socket, then it is a problem with that position and probably the socket with a carbon track on the top, bottom, or inside the socket where they sometimes have voids from manufacturing. IN a properly operating Viking 1 or 2 this doesn't happen so rather than add parts to yours to mask the symptom instead address the root cause. The 5R4 tubes are in parallel so there is nothing different in circuit design of function from one tube to the other.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 3:16 pm 
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The sockets are ceramic and no carbon tracking exists. It is well known a choke input filter produces a large spike when power is turned off. I would like to install a snubber, but not sure of the design and if across the choke or from choke input to ground. I suspect 250pF is too small, but the .01uF is large enough. A few transmitters had a snubber from the factory as mentioned at the AM Fone forum, but did not state what transmitter or I would have looked at the schematic. The flash on the rectifier tube occurs about 1 time in 50 transmissions, but still is bad news on the 5R4 rectifier tube.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 4:21 pm 
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Lots of V1 and V2 transmitters (and Valiants, DX-100, etc.) have run for decades with no snubber so if nothing else is wrong it will be fine without.

But if you want to add one, it MUST be a R/C snubber. The R actually dissipates the power, the C couples the fast rise transient while blocking DC so both are critical components. The snubber is placed (C and R in series) to ground. And make sure you don't end up with a resonant combination near 2X line frequency (i.e. .22uf with the 10H HV choke) or you will create some amazing transient events.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 4:48 pm 
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rsingl wrote:
Lots of V1 and V2 transmitters (and Valiants, DX-100, etc.) have run for decades with no snubber so if nothing else is wrong it will be fine without.

But if you want to add one, it MUST be a R/C snubber. The R actually dissipates the power, the C couples the fast rise transient while blocking DC so both are critical components. The snubber is placed (C and R in series) to ground. And make sure you don't end up with a resonant combination near 2X line frequency (i.e. .22uf with the 10H HV choke) or you will create some amazing transient events.

Rodger WQ9E

Thanks. I will use the Mylar .01uF @ 4KV and a series 250 ohm 7 watt resistor. I think the 4KV capacitor rating is high enough. You agree?

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 5:14 pm 
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Jim,

A bit more on your snubber circuit in a moment but first, how are you handling antenna T/R switching? Your transient could well be coming from "hot switching" the antenna which removes the load on the output tank before the power level has dropped to zero. Larger transmitters use both a delay upon release AND spark gaps to prevent damage from this problem.

My Johnson Desk KW is my most used AM rig and I use a vacuum antenna relay which has extremely fast make. It is DC powered and the filter capacitor for the DC supply I built provides a very slight delay upon release to ensure that the plate voltage is zero before the relay switches from transmit to receive. A regular cube relay is used to provide standby switching for the receiver and one set of the cube relay contacts is in series with the control line to the Desk KW. Because the cube relay switches more slowly than the vacuum relay, it ensures that the T/R relay has switched before the Desk KW plate supply is activated. This provides a very simple sequencing system done purely with relays.

My Viking 500 had an issue with the protective spark gap randomly firing when I first bought it. Johnson uses a "mechanical slow release" relay to control the external antenna relay to provide a slight switching delay upon release. This mechanical slow release depends upon residual magnetism in the control relay to provide the slow release and this property goes away with time. To address this issue, I used an electrolytic cap across the mechanical slow release relay which provides an electrical slow release and that cured the arcing issue. I suspect that all of the problems and complaints with the connectors between the Viking 500 external modulator power supply and RF deck are due to unaddressed issues with the slow release relay because the connectors used are capable of withstanding far more than the expected voltage in this application but hot switching the RF output means the transmitter is briefly looking into a near infinite impedance which develops extremely high voltage and if the protective gap is further opened to reduce nuisance arcing then the high voltage from hot switching is going to find another arc path. Once those connectors are upgraded, then the next path is likely to be very expensive because it will likely be the modulation transformer.

So in short, make sure that you aren't hot switching the output. Very few low to medium power transmitters address this issue because the voltage transients are low enough not to create obvious issues but it is the same problem that occurs with high power rigs although it is generally less spectacular and destructive. Tube type electronic T/R switches avoid this problem because the transmitter is always connected to the antenna and the receiver is isolated via the relay tube. Common Dow Key style external relays with 120 VAC coils can be converted to slow release as described in the Johnson Desk KW manual by feeding them from a simple DC supply but do NOT neglect the series resistor which reduces the voltage and power dissipation to the coil which would otherwise result in burn-out when running an AC relay coil from DC.

Back to the snubber:

Those sound like reasonable values and can be adjusted as necessary. One caveat is make sure that the resistor chosen is non-inductive because it needs to provide a fairly pure resistance to a fast rise waveform. So avoid wire wound types.

CDE provides a more in-depth look if you want to do the measurements and math for your circuit but it shouldn't be necessary:

http://www.cde.com/resources/technical- ... design.pdf

and

https://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/ ... r-Caps.pdf

Your chosen resistor value appears low enough that it should keep the peak transient to a sufficiently low level to avoid damage.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 5:23 pm 
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rsingl wrote:
Jim,

A bit more on your snubber circuit in a moment but first, how are you handling antenna T/R switching? Your transient could well be coming from "hot switching" the antenna which removes the load on the output tank before the power level has dropped to zero. Larger transmitters use both a delay upon release AND spark gaps to prevent damage from this problem.

My Johnson Desk KW is my most used AM rig and I use a vacuum antenna relay which has extremely fast make. It is DC powered and the filter capacitor for the DC supply I built provides a very slight delay upon release to ensure that the plate voltage is zero before the relay switches from transmit to receive. A regular cube relay is used to provide standby switching for the receiver and one set of the cube relay contacts is in series with the control line to the Desk KW. Because the cube relay switches more slowly than the vacuum relay, it ensures that the T/R relay has switched before the Desk KW plate supply is activated. This provides a very simple sequencing system done purely with relays.

My Viking 500 had an issue with the protective spark gap randomly firing when I first bought it. Johnson uses a "mechanical slow release" relay to control the external antenna relay to provide a slight switching delay upon release. This mechanical slow release depends upon residual magnetism in the control relay to provide the slow release and this property goes away with time. To address this issue, I used an electrolytic cap across the mechanical slow release relay which provides an electrical slow release and that cured the arcing issue. I suspect that all of the problems and complaints with the connectors between the Viking 500 external modulator power supply and RF deck are due to unaddressed issues with the slow release relay because the connectors used are capable of withstanding far more than the expected voltage in this application but hot switching the RF output means the transmitter is briefly looking into a near infinite impedance which develops extremely high voltage and if the protective gap is further opened to reduce nuisance arcing then the high voltage from hot switching is going to find another arc path. Once those connectors are upgraded, then the next path is likely to be very expensive because it will likely be the modulation transformer.

So in short, make sure that you aren't hot switching the output. Very few low to medium power transmitters address this issue because the voltage transients are low enough not to create obvious issues but it is the same problem that occurs with high power rigs although it is generally less spectacular and destructive. Tube type electronic T/R switches avoid this problem because the transmitter is always connected to the antenna and the receiver is isolated via the relay tube. Common Dow Key style external relays with 120 VAC coils can be converted to slow release as described in the Johnson Desk KW manual by feeding them from a simple DC supply but do NOT neglect the series resistor which reduces the voltage and power dissipation to the coil which would otherwise result in burn-out when running an AC relay coil from DC.

Back to the snubber:

Those sound like reasonable values and can be adjusted as necessary. One caveat is make sure that the resistor chosen is non-inductive because it needs to provide a fairly pure resistance to a fast rise waveform. So avoid wire wound types.

CDE provides a more in-depth look if you want to do the measurements and math for your circuit but it shouldn't be necessary:

http://www.cde.com/resources/technical- ... design.pdf

and

https://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/ ... r-Caps.pdf

Your chosen resistor value appears low enough that it should keep the peak transient to a sufficiently low level to avoid damage.

Rodger WQ9E

I am using a Dow Key relay. I have not measure the timing with a scope, but it sounds very slow in switching from transmit to receive. I have a very old carbon 7 watt 250 ohm carbon resistor.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 5:29 pm 
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rsingl wrote:
Jim,

A bit more on your snubber circuit in a moment but first, how are you handling antenna T/R switching? Your transient could well be coming from "hot switching" the antenna which removes the load on the output tank before the power level has dropped to zero. Larger transmitters use both a delay upon release AND spark gaps to prevent damage from this problem.

My Johnson Desk KW is my most used AM rig and I use a vacuum antenna relay which has extremely fast make. It is DC powered and the filter capacitor for the DC supply I built provides a very slight delay upon release to ensure that the plate voltage is zero before the relay switches from transmit to receive. A regular cube relay is used to provide standby switching for the receiver and one set of the cube relay contacts is in series with the control line to the Desk KW. Because the cube relay switches more slowly than the vacuum relay, it ensures that the T/R relay has switched before the Desk KW plate supply is activated. This provides a very simple sequencing system done purely with relays.


and

https://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/ ... r-Caps.pdf

Your chosen resistor value appears low enough that it should keep the peak transient to a sufficiently low level to avoid damage.

Rodger WQ9E


KWS-1 used the antenna relay slave contacts to control TX exciter keying to prevent hot RF keying.

Regarding adding capacitors across any filter inductor--that may lead to worsening the problem due to unexpected resonances.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 5:49 pm 
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jimbenedict wrote:

I am using a Dow Key relay. I have not measure the timing with a scope, but it sounds very slow in switching from transmit to receive. I have a very old carbon 7 watt 250 ohm carbon resistor.


The key issue with the relay is how quickly it starts to release and not how soon it returns to receive. These type relays have a pretty fast release but slower make and it is very likely you are hot switching the output. I would address this before doing anything with a snubber because you likely won't need to add those parts.

The carbon resistor should be fine.

You could use an arc gap instead of a snubber, pretty simple to build using screws and acorn type nuts to provide the arc surface. But it would be best to address antenna switching first to see if you still need a snubber.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 6:05 pm 
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rsingl wrote:
jimbenedict wrote:

I am using a Dow Key relay. I have not measure the timing with a scope, but it sounds very slow in switching from transmit to receive. I have a very old carbon 7 watt 250 ohm carbon resistor.


The key issue with the relay is how quickly it starts to release and not how soon it returns to receive. These type relays have a pretty fast release but slower make and it is very likely you are hot switching the output. I would address this before doing anything with a snubber because you likely won't need to add those parts.

The carbon resistor should be fine.

You could use an arc gap instead of a snubber, pretty simple to build using screws and acorn type nuts to provide the arc surface. But it would be best to address antenna switching first to see if you still need a snubber.

Rodger WQ9E

Dow Key relays are slow. When I unkey the transmitter, I hear the Dow Key relay click after I unkey. I guess it takes 1/4 second. That is why I use Dow Key vs an ice cube relay that releases in 10-15 milliseconds. I assume the Dow Key coil stores a lot of energy.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 6:17 pm 
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Jim,

The problem is the click you hear is when the Dow Key has made contact on the receive side. BUT the critical part is the release is very fast and that is what causes hot switching. Johnson specifically addresses this issue with Dow Key antenna relays in the Desk KW manual, see manual page 23 at this link: http://bama.edebris.com/download/johnso ... vik-kw.pdf

The Dow Key is hot switching with lower power transmitters just as it is with high power rigs, the difference it with low power rigs it is less noticeable and less likely to be spectacularly destructive so it is generally ignored. By watching for flash over in your transmitter, you are probably seeing a generally ignored issue which typically doesn't result in transmitter failure but the hot switching and resulting transient is still there.

The relay built into the kilowatt version of the Johnson Matchbox already has this DC/slow release circuit built in. The 275 watt unit doesn't because the problem wasn't considered significant at that power level.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 6:37 pm 
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rsingl wrote:
Jim,

The problem is the click you hear is when the Dow Key has made contact on the receive side. BUT the critical part is the release is very fast and that is what causes hot switching. Johnson specifically addresses this issue with Dow Key antenna relays in the Desk KW manual, see manual page 23 at this link: http://bama.edebris.com/download/johnso ... vik-kw.pdf

The Dow Key is hot switching with lower power transmitters just as it is with high power rigs, the difference it with low power rigs it is less noticeable and less likely to be spectacularly destructive so it is generally ignored. By watching for flash over in your transmitter, you are probably seeing a generally ignored issue which typically doesn't result in transmitter failure but the hot switching and resulting transient is still there.

The relay built into the kilowatt version of the Johnson Matchbox already has this DC/slow release circuit built in. The 275 watt unit doesn't because the problem wasn't considered significant at that power level.

Rodger WQ9E

I will place an off delay relay in the Viking to delay switch time.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 7:44 pm 
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You can test the Viking II directly into your dummy load and take the T/R relay out of the equation to see if the arcing goes away.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sat 21, 2020 9:27 pm 
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rsingl wrote:
You can test the Viking II directly into your dummy load and take the T/R relay out of the equation to see if the arcing goes away.

Rodger WQ9E

It rarely flashes over. 1 in 50 or perhaps 1 in 100 unkeying. A snubber cannot hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube
PostPosted: Nov Sun 22, 2020 4:43 pm 
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The tube arcs from the plate to the filament. Looking at 5R4 tubes, I find my RCA do not have much space in-between the filament and plate. I noticed the 5R4WGB with the wire filament hangar vs the filament wrapped around the top mica the filament hanger wire type has at least twice the filament to plate spacing inside. The Viking II operates the 5R4 at the voltage limit with 120 volts input. The Heathkit DX-100 is over plate voltage spec input. The Raytheon and Cetron are the only 5R4WGB that has dual getter flash thus may have higher vacuum vs the other brands.

I bought two Chatham 5R4WG 'potato mashers' with the filament hangers to replace the RCA 5R4GB. Some are 2" base and others 2-1/16" from Tung Sol, Raytheon and Chatham. Either base size fits the Johnson Viking and Heathkit DX-100. The Collins 32V series may not have space for the large base 5R4WGB, but can be operated in the recommended 600 volt plate position (1400 VCT) thus has lower voltage vs the Viking II or DX-100. On 120 volts the Viking II produces 1800 VCT and the DX-100 1880 VCT. Some Cetron 5R4WGB and all Raytheon 5R4WGB have a getter flash thus may have higher vacuum. Other brands do not have a getter flash.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube & HD Replacements
PostPosted: Dec Mon 14, 2020 1:54 pm 
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Parts finally arrived for the snubber. I found two 6800pF 4 KV ceramic capacitors installed in parallel for .0136uF. I wanted higher voltage rated, but large value capacitors in the 5 and higher KV range are hard to find.
I read around a .01uf is a good value for a high voltage snubber. The capacitors is terminated into a 300 ohm 8 watt carbon resistor to a .25 amp fuse to ground. (I guess a non-inductive wire wound resistor could be used too).
Being used in a transmitter with other components besides the rectifier tubes that occasionally arced inside, the high voltage spike could cause a failure in the modulation transformer and other components. And, unlike some transmitters with lower value chokes this Johnson Viking II uses a huge 10HY choke. The Heathkit DX-100 uses 5HY.

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube & HD Replacements
PostPosted: Dec Mon 14, 2020 4:29 pm 
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The high voltage counter EMF spike developed by the collapsing field in the filter choke is being forced to the plates of the rectifier tube, not towards the modulation transformer. The output filter cap would stop any major spike. The path of least resistance is towards the plates. Regardless, the counter EMF is seen at the rectifier end of the choke, the modulation transformer is not connected there. The counter EMF is also reversed polarity, it is additive to the charge voltage on the filter cap as seen by the rectifier. That charge voltage on the capacitor must be used when calculating the PIV the rectifier is exposed to, along with the counter EMF spike. I'd be much more worried about puncturing the choke insulation rather than the modulation transformer.

Now, since the back EMF can reach extremely high voltages if not suppressed, and knowing the PIV at the end of that choke includes the charge voltage on the filter cap I am curious what calculations you used to determine that 4-kV is a high enough value, and what effect the that capacitance value will have on integrating that voltage spike? Would having the snubber across the choke be a better alternative? It would reduce the PIV seen by the snubber by the amount of DC charge on the output filter cap.

The TR switch did not resolve your timing issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Flash in 5R4 Tube & HD Replacements
PostPosted: Dec Mon 14, 2020 4:49 pm 
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Peter Bertini wrote:
The high voltage counter EMF spike developed by the collapsing field in the filter choke is being forced to the plates of the rectifier tube, not towards the modulation transformer. The output filter cap would stop any major spike. The path of least resistance is towards the plates. Regardless, the counter EMF is seen at the rectifier end of the choke, the modulation transformer is not connected there. The counter EMF is also reversed polarity, it is additive to the charge voltage on the filter cap as seen by the rectifier. That charge voltage on the capacitor must be used when calculating the PIV the rectifier is exposed to, along with the counter EMF spike. I'd be much more worried about puncturing the choke insulation rather than the modulation transformer.

Now, since the back EMF can reach extremely high voltages if not suppressed, and knowing the PIV at the end of that choke includes the charge voltage on the filter cap I am curious what calculations you used to determine that 4-kV is a high enough value, and what effect the that capacitance value will have on integrating that voltage spike? Would having the snubber across the choke be a better alternative? It would reduce the PIV seen by the snubber by the amount of DC charge on the output filter cap.

The TR switch did not resolve your timing issue?

The Johnson T/R switch obviously resolved the timing issue as the antenna is always connected to the transmitter. I did not calculate the high voltage spike value. Did fuse the capacitors incase they fail. I thought the high voltage spike appeared everywhere the choke was connected including the modulator and transmit tubes plus the mod transformer. When I changed to the higher voltage 'potato smasher' rectifiers I did not experience a tube arcing issue. But, the snubber is a good idea IMO.

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