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 Post subject: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Mon 23, 2022 3:11 pm 
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Location: Poulsbo, Wa
I have tried everything i can think of but they never spray even. (warning them, shaking forever...) i have not had a problem getting flattener out of rattle cans even...but not mohawk toners.

Ideas?

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Tue 24, 2022 8:25 am 
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Location: Nr London, England, SS1 3PT
To me there is no trick to toning large areas or whole cabinets with the dark colours. They always come out speckled or over dark when you try to fill in. I think they are intended just for small touch in places by accomplished cabinet restorers. The reason for this, so I was told, is droplet size which is huge compared to the mist that can be achieved with a proper spray gun set up.

You can use them successfully with light colours. I dont know many of those but Light Golden Oak has been useful to me.

I strip all the old finish and use stain carefully and by that I mean starting light adding White (Mineral?) Spirit to thin the spirit type I use. Can always darken easily ...

If that hasnt produced the effect I want then I additionally use the "Artists Oil Paint" method. Takes a little practice but has been very helpful. There is plenty of info on the Forum if you do a Search.

Sure others have their ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Tue 24, 2022 12:29 pm 
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poulsbobill wrote:
I have tried everything i can think of but they never spray even.

Radio Fixer wrote:
I strip all the old finish and use stain carefully and by that I mean sta...........


Apples and Oranges ..... the first is toning (a surface treatment) and the second is staining (a penetrating colour).

Typically antique radios were not stained. They were sprayed with toners, toned lacquers and clear topcoats in some cases.

If a toner is not spreading evenly and can be seen to be blotchy, the odds are pretty good that the receiving surface is contaminated with ..... you name it ... silicone from sprays, oils from cooking, etc, etc. Alan V has a good procedure for blocking the contaminants by using a barrier coating of shellac. That's probably the best way to solve this issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Tue 24, 2022 3:25 pm 
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I can see the color/no color come out of the can as you spray...its like its not mixed enough and yet i do...
2 different cans. dark walnut and perfect brown.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Tue 24, 2022 3:37 pm 
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If you have cans that won't mix evenly then that's a whole separate problem. I can tell you that I can lay even coats of color down with the cans Mohawk spray products on hand.

Which ones are you using? Ultra Classic, or Tone Finish? Tone Finish is only for non-veneered areas. I don't know about anyone else but I won't use that on veneer because it muds up the grain pattern. That's what Ultra Classic is for. Difference is dye versus pigment.


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Tue 24, 2022 4:36 pm 
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poulsbobill wrote:
I can see the color/no color come out of the can as you spray...its like its not mixed enough and yet i do...
2 different cans. dark walnut and perfect brown.

Bill


Is it water-based? It almost sounds as if it was frozen ....


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Tue 24, 2022 5:19 pm 
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Quote:
If a toner is not spreading evenly and can be seen to be blotchy, the odds are pretty good that the receiving surface is contaminated with ..... you name it ... silicone from sprays, oils from cooking, etc, etc. Alan V has a good procedure for blocking the contaminants by using a barrier coating of shellac. That's probably the best way to solve this issue.
Silicone contamination can be so bad as to infect the entire finishing work area, benches, tools if one has inadvertently handled products with silicone. The silicone will get transferred and recontaminate...

If the shop has been contaminated one recourse is to use a "fish-eye" remover product and or add the product to the spray mix if not using rattle cans...

If one can recall using many of the household furniture wax products, certain auto waxes, did work with plumbing faucets using "O" rings and silicone "O" ring lube, Oops...

My former employer had a silicone contamination problem on the manufacturing floor. The molding machinery used "O" rings to seal the mold to a liquid/steam/water frame. If the lubricant was not thoroughly cleaned from the surfaces of the mold frame it was transferred to product, despite repeated product process washings, the silicone would cause paint peeling of the finished product or a wrinkled finish. It took an entire week of a shutdown to clean the entire production line with 100's of workers. The paint chemistry was also altered to allow for slight contamination. it was thought that an inexperienced mold technician was responsible...

The only other possibility is humidity. The paint is exiting the nozzle with propellant and further sub-cooling below dew point, picking up moisture in the spray pattern as a "cloud" and laying the moisture with the paint film. If a haze is seen upon the immediate surface, as a "cloudiness", then that is an indication, but it can also be a high solvent content of the paint, "gassing off"...

Taking a moisture/dew point reading, either modern moisture meter or wet/dry bulb sling psychrometer and using a chart can determine the suitability to spray the paint that day.

Waiting for a dry day or using a de-humidifier could clear the area but makeup air has to flow to keep the paint room from becoming explosive and cause great illness in the worker.

Putting a recycled air conditioner into service as a dehumidifier would help. Does not have to sit in the window as the condenser heat would also further lower the dew point.

If using shop air the moisture in the compressed air can also be a problem as well as lubricant oils from a piston compressor. Chilling the high pressure air to as low a temp as practical can eliminate much of the moisture as well as a desiccant compressed air dryer. A small table top ice box with a coil of copper/aluminum tubing inside and a water separator at the exit makes a suitable compressed air dryer, that would never need desiccant replacement... Oily air will spoil a desiccant dryer cartridge.

YMMV

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Tue 24, 2022 5:46 pm 
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These are tone finish. The classic isnt as muddy? I guess it stands to reason the dye would mix better than pigment.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Tue 24, 2022 7:55 pm 
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When you say "blotchy", that means lighter and darker areas to me. The only reason why this would happen is if you are not putting the product down evenly. Spray some on white paper and see what happens.

A picture is worth a thousand words.


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Wed 25, 2022 4:25 am 
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poulsbobill wrote:
These are tone finish. The classic isnt as muddy? I guess it stands to reason the dye would mix better than pigment.

Bill


Bill: As Paul has suggested, you want to use the Ultra-Classic toners. These lay down beautifully, and are translucent, letting the grain of your veneers show through.. The regular toners are opaque and good for hiding cheap wood grains, such as the wood on console bases, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Wed 25, 2022 3:10 pm 
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I do think that is the answer. I have the wrong stuff. The pigments come out of the can thick and thin (for me) ie blotchy. i can get a nice heavy opaque coat but that is not what i am looking for.

Thanks

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Wed 25, 2022 3:25 pm 
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Yes, use the correct toned lacquer, but take care to apply multiple thin coats. Keeping the can moving is also critical. Start spraying before you reach the radio and keep spraying until you are past the radio, plus take care to spray parallel to the surface, not an arc. Of course, one good thing about lacquer is that you can clean it off and start again.

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Last edited by FStephenMasek on May Fri 27, 2022 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Thu 26, 2022 6:35 am 
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FStephenMasek wrote:
Of course, one good thing about lacquer is that you can clean it off and start again.

I especially (broken record here) if you use a wash coat of shellac first.


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Thu 26, 2022 6:55 am 
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Location: Nr London, England, SS1 3PT
Yes! I had forgotten to ask if you were using the Tone ones or the Classic. The Tones are great for trim, feet etc where you want obliteration and I have had no trouble in the past with those.

The Classic ones are more translucent and in the light colours work OK for me but dark ones dont, such as Extra Dark Walnut. I was told that this is because the droplet size is large and variable and if you spray a light coat you can actually see this. I have never had a proper spray gun set up but I'm sure they spray a very fine mist with the extra pressure available. Perhaps a spray gun guy (Fred?) could chime in and add a bit of know how?

Just did a Goggle search and it seems spray cans are around 6 Bar and spray guns are used at between 10 to 15 bar with one guy who says he uses 17. With a much smaller nozzle size then we can expect the droplets to be just mist.


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: May Thu 26, 2022 7:48 pm 
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I got my start many years ago doing antique furniture restoration and got the radio bug about three years ago. I really admire the beautiful work that Fred does and would be very interested in his comments. Here’s my take….. When someone is paying you to make their 1870 beat up Davenport look like new, the fit and finish is what ultimately will be judged. So, I’m pretty picky with my finishes. Here’s my $.02 worth. I’ve never used rattle cans, so I can’t comment one way or the other. I had an average spray gun and in 2017 upgraded to a nice midrange Devilbiss gun ~$300.00 The consistency and quality of the spray was noticeable. I use the regulator at the gun to turn the pressure down to about 6 lbs. when I’m spraying lacquer or sealer. I use the 1.3mm tip, and adjust the fan to about 6” when I’m about 8 to 10” from the target. This gun atomized the liquid beautifully. I’m using Mohawks lacquers and make my toners by adding dies. I always shoot a piece of masking paper as a test. If I’m laying down a nice even coat on the paper, then I’m ready to shoot the wood. The spray is so fine that I can make multiple lite passes to build up the perfect tone. I consider a good spray gun critical. If the piece you are spraying has been properly prepared, filled, sanded, sealed. And you’re not battling climate issues or surface contamination, you will be a great results. If you’re using rattle cans, spray some masking paper. How does it look? If it’s blotchy on the paper, it’s gunna be blotchy on the wood.

cheers,
Ray


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 Post subject: Re: Trick to get mohawk toners to not be blotchy?
PostPosted: Jun Fri 03, 2022 2:53 am 
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Another thing to consider is whether the blotchyness is the result of the nozzle developing clogs resulting in a spit-like droplet effect on. Mohawk cans are easy to remove or replace nozzles on, and you can leave a few extra nozzles soaking in lacquer thinner to switch to if a can develops nozzle clogs. Sometimes when using any-spray can (regardless design or brand) I will notice some spit-like droplets on my work and realize I was accidentally placing my finger tip too far forward on the nozzle, resulting on the paint/finish hitting the very end of my finger and causing accidental drips. People make these plastic gun-shaped devices you can attach to spray cans to make using them easier but I find they give you a 50/50 shot of making accidental droplets worse.


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