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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Stafford, Texas USA
Nolan "Redneck" Lee passed to the Land of the REDNECK in about 2008.

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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 3:48 pm 
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Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
I have heard that somewhere out in the Mojave Desert perhaps, all the original Hickok manuals are entombed and buried inside the space ship from whence they came :)

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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Mar Thu 29, 2018 3:41 am
Posts: 169
Location: Portland Oregon
I can believe that the manuals are in the Mojave desert, and that the data for the manuals we have access to were reflected off the moon. The scan data on most of these manuals are so low that it is nearly impossible to read a lot of the small lettering...

Going back on topic: Does anyone have any suggestions on what I have to do to better calibrate my Shunt control test on the 10 scale? I will look into this more tonight. That schematic is hard to trace out for this test!


Dave


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
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Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
I have a TV-2 that was restored in the past by an ARF'er ... but I've not really had any time at all to fiddle with it. I'll try and check the s/n later today or tomorrow when I'm up at the shop, and if it's close to yours, perhaps I can take a peek in the innards or measure something for you. I don't, unfortunately, have a hi rez photo up on the website yet, just a lower rez one till I get to reshooting all of them. Working on it .... lol

Barry

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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Mar Thu 29, 2018 3:41 am
Posts: 169
Location: Portland Oregon
I just looked on your website...you have a seriously cool collection Barry!

I really like your tube analyzers! Do you have any more plans for solid state tube tube equivalents like the 6SN7 shown on your website? Are these a good "known" proxy? Have you built it and are there any issues with this approach? I would like to make a couple different Gm equivalents to qualify my testers (say, one for each range on my TV-2/U). I have had buddies volunteer to let me use tubes that they measured - but who knows how good their testers are operating.

Thanks for your help!

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Dec Mon 05, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 334
TechyMechy wrote:
I have had buddies volunteer to let me use tubes that they measured - but who knows how good their testers are operating.

Dave


Two sources I know for "bogey" tubes are:

Blueglow Electronics

Brent Jessee Recording


I have never heard of a solid-state bogey or "calibration" tube, and would be rather sceptical of such.

Blueglow seems to specialize in tubes calibrated to the TV-7 tester series, while Brent Jessee sells tubes tested on a half-dozen or so testers which he claims to all be tightly calibrated.

Of course YOUR test results will vary according to the applied signal amplitude, grid bias, plate voltage and other grid voltages. Add in differences in the curves of your #83 main rectifier tube, plus whether the "bogey" was measured on the same tester model, and you´ll be doing real well if you get results within around 10%.

Undoubtedly, the TV-2 testers, using filtered grid and screen voltages, plus carefully metered signal voltage, SHOULD be among the most "accurate" and repeatable. Unfortunately, I don´t know of anybody selling bogeys specifically made for the TV-2. Easy to find tubes "cerrtified" for the TV-7 or Hicok 539, but not so for the TV-2.

BE CAREFUL! In trying to squeeze out the best possible accuracy, you may find yourself on the slippery slope to where only a custom-built "Jagundo" tester or computerized curve tracer will satisfy you. And, even if you end up going down that path, you still won´t be able to separate the "goods" from the "bads" in a grab bag of, say, 1L6´s (a notoriously "fussy" converter tube used in many portable radios).


^^;;^^


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 10:19 pm 
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Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 4195
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
That 6SN7 calibrator is not my design. I haven’t built one yet but I will.

As you research tube testers you will come to realize that the is not, never was, and never will be a 100% accurate calibration standard that works on all testers. Then again, there really doesn’t need I be one.

Search this forum so I don’t have to type so much. Also read a paper by Mike Higgins and get Alan Douglas book. Read a lot. I am trying to get all this compiled and up on my site as a research tool but it’s tough getting started lol

EDIT: And furthermore, if you read around enough, you'll realize that the original method for making a true "bogey" tube was top secret, and died in the Mojave Desert with the alien engineers. Bout the best we can do today is come "close enough" ... and you'll also find out that the only "true" way TODAY of being even close to lucky with this is to make your own bogey tube on your own calibrated tube tester. It's a process :) READ ... I don't wanna retype what's already been said a dozen times.

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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 9:10 am 
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Joined: Mar Thu 29, 2018 3:41 am
Posts: 169
Location: Portland Oregon
I worked on the tester tonight. I had to change a few resistors that were out of spec. I have a few more to change but I'm waiting for my selection of 2W resistors to arrive. A lot of the carbon resistors drifted high, but there were a few that drifted low.

I don't have a resister 66 as shown in the schematic. I don't think it is that big of a deal, it's a 15 ohm resistor that looks to pull up taps 3-6 on the T2 secondary. My tester never came with the resistor.

Resistors 30 and 31 look to be out of spec but they are the wire wound resistors. These are directly in line with my quality meter. They both have drifted low - which is weird. R31 looks especially bad since it's resistance is about 1200 Ohms when it should be 2700 Ohms. I have metal film resistor that is within spec (resistance and power rating) for both the R30 and R31. Do you think it would be OK to pull the leg on one of the resistors and check both of them? If I pull one leg, I can be assured of directly measuring the resistors. I think that I will be committed to replace the resistor with the lifted leg with a metal film resistor because I heard that you should never resolder an old resistor that was removed.

R40 and R42 are also wire wound resistors that are the key resistors in the bridge circuit between the GM centering pot and the shunt pot. The coating on them was damaged at one point (don't know why or how). Both of these resistors are reading low too. They are supposed to be 87.5 +/-0.5% (or roughly between 87.1 to 87.9 Ohm) resistors. They are currently reading 86 and 86.2 Ohms, respectively. I will have to zero out my contact resistance tomorrow to get a much better reading. I think I should remove roughly 0.2 Ohms from each. I can create a 87.5 Ohm resistor with a 2200 Ohm and a 91 Ohm metal film resistors in parallel. I think I can pick these out so the parallel resistor will be really close to 87.5 Ohms. Do you think this is worth the effort?

I look forward to your thoughts and comments.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 11:49 am 
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Joined: Dec Mon 05, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 334
TechyMechy wrote:
> ...
Both of these resistors are reading low too. They are supposed to be 87.5 +/-0.5% (or roughly between 87.1 to 87.9 Ohm) resistors. They are currently reading 86 and 86.2 Ohms, respectively. I will have to zero out my contact resistance tomorrow to get a much better reading. I think I should remove roughly 0.2 Ohms from each. I can create a 87.5 Ohm resistor with a 2200 Ohm and a 91 Ohm metal film resistors in parallel. I think I can pick these out so the parallel resistor will be really close to 87.5 Ohms. Do you think this is worth the effort?

I look forward to your thoughts and comments.

Dave



I think you may be getting down into the area where you need to check the reading of your meter against a "lab standard" resistance of, say 100.00 Ohms at 25 C. Proper compensation for test lead and contact resistances can also be a bit tricky when you start to play with differences in the tenths of an Ohm or so.


Short of gross mechanical damage or really soggy moisture + salt from fingers, I have trouble imagining what would cause two matched wire-wounds to drift low ... maybe leakage paths external to the resistors themselves? Or, maybe a temperature effect ... wire-wounds will typically increase in resistance with increasing temperature, and they do recommend warming up those testers for 20 minutes or so. Again, you are getting close to the border line between "service grade" and "laboratory grade" measurements.

Personally, I would be very reluctant to mess with those "bridge" resistors, especially since they still appear to be quite closely matched. Anything you put in there to get the precise resistances you want "on the bench" may well go off under warmed-up, in-the-case conditions.



^^;;^^


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Posts: 4195
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
Wirewound resistors DO NOT CHANGE VALUE. If you are measuring them as changed, you are measuring them wrong. Check your tester, and also if you are testing them without disconnecting one end, that's a good source of erroneous readings.

I've mentioned before that changing out resistors in mil grade tube testers isn't a very good idea. You may be going down a path of no return here. Keep in mind that most are going to be 10% tolerance even when they were new so if they are within that range, they are not going to hurt anything. Also, some were possibly hand selected during manufacture.

I'd stop changing resistors and let the alignment procedure be your guide. If it won't calibrate, THEN would be the time to go chasing resistors.

As far as lifting a leg of a resistor, I can see no reason why it cannot be resoldered if you are careful. Probably what you refer to as "don't do that" is in regard to possible mechanical damage where the lead enters the resistor body. I've personally never had an issue with that, unless it outright broke, which has happened once or twice.

As noted by others, you mess with wirewound bridge resistors at your peril, and that of the instrument. Don't do it :)

just my 1.56k ohms worth.

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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 3:31 pm 
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I second what Barry said. Messing with these resistors for .2 ohms is a bad idea and totally unrealistic.


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Dec Mon 05, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 334
Barry H Bennett wrote:
>...
I've mentioned before that changing out resistors in mil grade tube testers isn't a very good idea.
>...
.


Cerrtainly true of the critical wire-wound resistors, which rarely drift over time, unless severely abused (overheated, moisture, mechanical damage, etc.), but the many "composition" type resistors DO often drift enough to cause problems. In the TV-2 series, there´s a notorious 1+ MOhm composition resistor in the SHORTS test circuit which frequently drifts high and leads to false positives on the SHORTS test. They can drift high or low, though high seems to be more common (luckily, since it´s then relatively easy to patch in a parallel "helper" to get back in spec).

IIRC, the standard "by the book" calibration procedures for the TV-7 series (at least the earlier models) actually involve the routine replacement of a number of resistors in order to get the desired readings.


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Joined: Mar Thu 29, 2018 3:41 am
Posts: 169
Location: Portland Oregon
Well, I didn't word my last message very well...note to self...don't write messages after midnight! :-)

Why am I looking at the wire wound resistors? I can't pass my Echelon 5 shunt control test on the shunt 10 setting. I barely pass the test on the shunt 90 setting.

Shunt 10: Spec 4.92mA +/-5%: My reading 4.13 mA (as of last night) - 16% error
Shunt 90: Spec .605mA +/-5%: My reading .578 mA - 4.5% error

I don't have the TS-682A/GSM-1 nor can I find any information on this tool which is listed in the manual to complete the Shunt Control test. I have a DC Bench power supply and have placed in series a current limiting resistor and my DVM in ammeter mode as a surrogate TS-682A/GSM-1. The results by doing this kludge seems reasonable, but are not passing.

I'm having a devil of a time following the schematic to follow the flow of electrons through the tester for this test. I saw in the simplified diagram, that wire wound R30 and R31 are series and are in the electron flow path that could change my quality meter results. These two resistors are measuring low. I have actually replalced other resistors on this tester that are low. I am thinking I will lift one leg and measure a direct, open ended resistance for these two resistors and insure that they are OK or bad.

R40 and R42 are very close to the same value (only about 0.2 Ohms off), but they are not in spec. I was only going to mess with these as a last resort. I can't imagine that if the resistors are matched, that the absolute resistance error could make that big of difference. I actually have 100 Ohm standards but they are stainless steel. I have been using sharp probes on the solder connections to measure the resistance which will provide slightly different contact resistances from the stainless body of the standard. I'll probe the standard tonight right before I remeasure my resistors. I'll see if I can rig up a 4 point probe which should eliminate the contact resistance errors.

I was going to try to unsolder the wiper leg on my shunt pot and check it's full scale value and linearity. The shunt electrical contacts are really buried, and it will take a fair bit of disassembly to get to the shunt pot contacts. I would like to avoid this unless necessary.

Everything else in the Echelon 5 tests are passing. Plate meter readings are a bit out on the lower voltage range range but this is due to a non linear meter and errors with the transformer output. My screen meter has similar problems but is in spec for all ranges. If my meters were more linear, the tester would pass with flying colors. I can create calibration charts to help me set the respective pot resistors or I can use a DVM as a surrogate meter. I had to replace a lot of the carbon resistors, including the aforementioned 1.2 MOhm resistor in this tester. I have been using 1% metal film resistors and creating a lot of the weird values with the standard values. The only resistor which I have changed from the schematic was R64 (changed from 1500 Ohms to 1350 Ohms), which is the 1st range resistor in my filament meter circuit.

There are a lot of errors in the manuals. I don't know if the Shunt Control test specs are one of those errors. I don't know anyone who actually performed the Echelon 5 tests.

I will look at the schematic tonight and confirm that the R30/31 are truly isolated. If I cannot figure out a switch setting to do so, I will lift the leg on R30/R31 and measure these resistors.

Does anyone have suggestions on what I am doing wrong in my Shunt Control test, if the manual has an error, or what the most likely culprits are for my tester not passing this test?

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
Resistors VERY seldom drift low, if ever. Wirewounds do not drift at all unless heavily abused and usually not even then

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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Joined: Dec Mon 05, 2011 1:10 am
Posts: 334
TechyMechy wrote:

>...
Does anyone have suggestions on what I am doing wrong in my Shunt Control test, if the manual has an error, or what the most likely culprits are for my tester not passing this test?

Dave



Is the position of the SHUNT knob fixed relative to its shaft (spline, key, flat, etc.) or can it be adjusted? If you can adjust it, maybe loosen the set screw and find a position that brings the current readings at 10 and 90 into better agreement with the values from the manual. From what you describe, it sounds like maybe a couple of ticks CCW might do the trick.


I THINK that the total current you read in the test divides between the SHUNT pot and the meter, so changing any other resistors should have no effect on how that current divides (though it might affect how much voltage you need to apply in order to produce that total current). What you are really checking in this step seems to be the ratio of the SHUNT to the meter resistance.

If the meter truly reads full scale at 100uA and the SHUNT pot gives 100 Ohms at the 10 mark, the effective meter resistance calculates to 4820 Ohms. With a full scale reading of 100 uA and 900 Ohms SHUNT, the meter resistance calculates to 4545 Ohms. Pretty close, though not spot on ... seems to support the assumption that the SHUNT pot is nominal 1000 Ohms, linear. Of course, you could actually MEASURE the meter and SHUNT resistances (VERY CAREFULLY!) if you are willing to unsolder a couple of connections.



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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 10:56 pm 
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Joined: Mar Thu 29, 2018 3:41 am
Posts: 169
Location: Portland Oregon
Morcegao: Checking the shunt knob location - what an EXCELLENT IDEA!

I'll try that tonight. Hopefully, the knobs are not keyed to the shaft.

To check the meter, would you unsolder both leads, use a DC power supply with a current limiting resister and ammeter in series while measuring the voltage at the power supply with a separate volt meter and connect this to the quality meter? I'm thinking about using a limiting resistor around 47K Ohms

We will know the current through the meter and can determine the voltage drop across it (voltage divider with the current limiting resister).

Hopefully, I won't have to get to the shunt contacts. That is burried pretty deep.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Dec Sat 01, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Mar Thu 29, 2018 3:41 am
Posts: 169
Location: Portland Oregon
I checked the shunt knob. The pot has a flat on the shaft so the knob is keyed relative to the wiper location.

I unsoldered the meter and measured it's linearity and resistance. I used my DC power supply with a DVM connected between it's voltage contacts to measure voltage very accurately. I then placed a 51.05kOhm resistor in an an ammeter in series between the meter and the power supply and measured the voltage and current at 6 points from 0 to 150 (full scale) on the quality meter. I then did a voltage divider and backed out the meter resistance and did some other statistics. I took multiple multiple readings as I increased and decreased the quality score and took and average of these value. I also gently tapped the quality meter to eliminate any slight "sticking" of the movement.

The average meter resistance is 1255 Ohms
The average current for full scale (150 quality) is 98.67 microamps

The best fit of meter quality vs. current is: Current (microamps) = 0.6596*Quality-0.0159
for quality between 10 to 150 values.

I checked the shunt pot for linearity. I unsoldered one leg of the pot and the Quality meter remained unsoldered from the circuit.

The max shunt pot resistance from wiper-to-leg is 1023.3 Ohms. The min shunt pot resistance is 0.407 Ohms. I believe my contact resistance is roughly 0.2 Ohms.

The max shunt pot resistance from leg-to-leg is 1030.7 Ohms

I took multiple readings of the pot linearity in ascending and descending resistance and took the average of these readings. The average shunt leg to wiper resistance at setting 10 is 913.85 Ohms. The average shunt leg to wiper resistance at setting 90 is 62.174 Ohms.

The best linear fit for the average data:

Resistance = -10.696*Shunt Reading+1023.5: This is valid for shunt between 0 and 90

So, my meter and shunt are pretty darn linear. The biggest error (comparing best linear fit of average values to measured value):

2.3% for shunt at 90 position (less in other positions - part of this is my ability to measure)
1.3% for meter linearity (at 25% quality measurement)

I feel really good that these two pieces are working well and are quite linear. I don't know if the slope of the devices is correct, but it seem reasonable. In theory, the shunt is 1000 ohms and should be 1000 Ohms at shunt setting 0 and 0 Ohms at a shunt setting of 100 (I think). This means that the theoretical slop is 10 Ohms/division. My shunt is 1023 Ohms a shunt position of 0 and .4 Ohms at a shunt position of 97.5 ish (I could not turn the shunt to the 100 scale). I have a slope of 10.7 Ohms/division. I don't know if this is OK or not. The shunt is keyed for the actual shunt wiper-to-screen printed value on the tube tester panel as well as the knob is keyed to the shunt shaft. I can probably "wiggle" the shunt pot-to-tube tester panel maybe 1-2 divisions(max).

Now, I have to put the tester back together and then retest the Shunt Control test.

I had my GM centering pot at the white dot location when doing this work and I removed my 83 rectifier tube. I'll carefully put it back together and see what the data says. Hopefully it work. If it doesn't, I either did a bone head mistake in reassembling the tester or I have a broken wire or maybe one of the wire wound resistors are flakey. I have been avoiding lifting the legs on these resistors but will do that if things don't test out right.

I'l give the latest results tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Dec Sun 02, 2018 7:15 am 
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Joined: Mar Thu 29, 2018 3:41 am
Posts: 169
Location: Portland Oregon
I've been trying to find information on the quality meter.

I understand that the quality meter requires about 100uA full scale. Some people have stated that the internal resistance should be 250 Ohms. I found out that I was actually measuring the resistance of the Quality meter incorrectly. One should manually select a high resistance range on the DVM and then decrease until they can get the measure w/o pushing the meter off full scale.

I set my 8050a fluke to 20K resistance range. This worked. My meter read 242 Ohms. This is a good measurement. The meter internal resistance should be between 240 to 250 Ohms (lower is better) and testers start to have issues if the meter is above 500 Ohms.

I put everything back together and I didn't pass the shunt control test. My shunt pot is fine, my meter is fine. I know that now. I didn't have the proper tool to do the Shunt Control test according to the manual and I could not find any information on the TS-682A/GSM-1 to confirm I was providing the same signal. Who knows, there are a lot of errors in these manual...maybe this test has some fundamental errors.

I tested a 6V6 when I was doing the final evaluation. It had a quality score of 60, which is above minimum. I still have about 14 each 2W carbon resistors that are out of spec that I need to change. I have ordered a bunch of resistors from Sal and hopefully they will be here in a couple of days.

I'll see if I can get some newer tubes from my buddies to see if my tester is creating reasonable results. I just got the Alan Douglas book on tube testers and he has a method for simulating direct Gm readings on my tester.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Dec Wed 05, 2018 12:26 am 
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Joined: Mar Thu 29, 2018 3:41 am
Posts: 169
Location: Portland Oregon
I've been thinking about my shunt pot and how to account for the overall range inaccuracy and the linearity issues. This is the issue:

Resistance Spec My shunt pot
1000 Ohms 1023 Ohms

Range spec My shunt pot
0 - 100 0-98

If the pot was perfectly linear, my resistance should be:

Range Resistance My correction factor(add division)
0 1000 2
10 900 1
20 800 1
30 700 0
40 600 0
50 500 -1
60 400 -2
70 300 -2
80 200 -3
90 100 -3
100 0 -5


For example, if the roll chart ask for a shunt of 0, I would set the shunt to 0+2 = 2.
If the roll chart asks for a shunt of 41, I would set my shunt to 41+0 = 41
If the roll chart asks for a shunt of 90, I would set my shunt to 90-5 = 85
If the roll chart asks for a shunt of 100, I would set my shunt full scale which is 98.

How close should my pot be? How sensitive is the quality and Gm on the pot linearity. Should I look at replacement of the pot and if so, where does one find this part?

Thanks for your input.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: TV-2/U repair
PostPosted: Dec Wed 05, 2018 1:06 am 
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Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 4195
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
Your shunt pot is well under 5% tolerance. Leave it be Tube testers are not precision instruments. They never were

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