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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 5:38 pm 
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As an "older" kid I remember breaking open mercury relay tubes and doing experiments with the mercury... plating stuff, conduction experiments, and just plain watching it roll around and form smaller and larger blobs. I'm still alive today.... I think ... but maybe I'll never be the same. Then again, I never was ;-) 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 5:48 pm 
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innkeeper wrote:
thanks Chas, for the white shellac, do you mean like the Zinsser B-I-N stuff?
also for sodium bisulfate, is there a common household source for it, I know sani-flush is mostly sodium bisulfate but has it but has other chemicals as well.
(edit) sani-flush seems to have been discontinued years ago.
Ya!... Ha, ha, swimming pool acid! Find the cheapest swimming pool supply, generally 5# for 5 to 10$.

Also $$ commercial product for metal work Sparex ahem, despite the manufactures claim Sparex is sodium bisulfate.

The general purpose mix 2oz dry measure to 1 quart of hot water. Can be used hot much more aggressive, cold is fine.. Keep in glass or plastic chem bottle, no metal stopper.

The product will not clean oily, greasy, rosin coated surfaces. Do not mix with anything else, I don't and I do not know what will happen...

BTW this will remove the blackening on nickle plated brass, will not remove sound nickle plating or wear it away like metal polish.

Good, also, to remove corrosion from alkaline battery leakage.

Robert Lozier (ARF) has added Hydrogen Peroxide, drug store 5%, to make an excellent brass brightening when used in a ultrasonic cleaner however, I cannot find at the moment, the concentrations of either.

Use your PPE, goggles, nitrile gloves, tap water rinse is fine. Do not soak any parts with mixed metals or use with metal ferule brush.

Yep, Zinser BIN or even flake shellac. Do put a date on the can or confirm the date that is stamped on the lid? Avoid using if more than a year old, it may not dry and be forever tacky...

Avoid cleaning where the residue cannot be collected and properly disposed. Household cleaning chemicals are expected in a municipal drain but not in the soil :shock:

YMMV

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 5:56 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
Call me crazy (been called worse) but I take them outside, wet them down slightly with plain old water either from a spray bottle or a garden hose....

Thanks for sharing how you do it. I don't think that would work for me though cause though I live in a watershed area, literally our town's reservoir is in my backyard and the feeder to the neighboring city water supply runs through my property so getting cadmium oxides into the water supply is likely a no no .. i would feel guilty knowing it could leach in there even if it is a small amount. .. the limits for cadmium oxides in water supplies are low like .01 parts per million. I'm sure it is a viable option for some though.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Chas wrote:
Ya!... Ha, ha, swimming pool acid! Find the cheapest swimming pool supply, generally 5# for 5 to 10$.

Also $$ commercial product for metal work Sparex ahem, despite the manufactures claim Sparex is sodium bisulfate.
...
Use your PPE, goggles, nitrile gloves ...

Yep, Zinser BIN or even flake shellac. ....

Chas


Awsum thanks chas! And no worries, I'll play safe and use nitrile gloves and goggles if I play with this stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
As an "older" kid I remember breaking open mercury relay tubes and doing experiments with the mercury... plating stuff, conduction experiments, and just plain watching it roll around and form smaller and larger blobs. I'm still alive today.... I think ... but maybe I'll never be the same. Then again, I never was ;-) 8)


Ahh.. but.. would you do it today? .. sad thing is I might actually lol ... stuff like that was so readily available. I can remember toys with mercury in them, one maze kind of thing with a mercury blob in it, and another that had mercury in water.

I've been heavily exposed to dioxin .. someday that will likely be the death of me .. but till then.. might as well not make things worse. it is good to get information out there so people going forward won't make the same mistakes we have in the past.

And we wonder why we're all dying off with cancer and other strange diseases. maybe the next generation won't have as many issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Scott wrote:
innkeeper wrote:
Scott wrote:
I take items with white rust outside and brush/wipe them down with a mask on. As long as I am not inhaling the dust, I am happy.

Thanks Scott. Do you do anything afterward to keep the bare metal from rusting or to keep the cadmium from continuing to oxidize?

No, I don't. I figure that by the time it develops the powdery white rust again, I will be long gone from the earth. The Hickok tube testers I have done are too busy on the inside to be able to lacquer over everything easily. I clean up the loose stuff the best I can with the chassis outside and wear a respirator mask. A slightly breezy day is best to help the particles move on their way. My goal has to been to get off as much as I reasonably can so it is not coming off and getting airborne inside my shop.

I restored a R-390 in early 2002 and I opened the meters not knowing that there was radium dust inside them. I was concerned enough that I went a purchased a large HEPA air cleaner for my shop. Then in late 2002 I cleaned the cadmium powder off of a SX-28. It was pretty much a lot of hand wiping with windex, and then using a metal polish to finish the clean up. It came out really nice. I was hospitalized and battling for my life having leukemia in March of 2003. Of course, I asked my oncologists if this exposure could possibly have a relation, but they firmly said no. They are probably correct that even if I was exposed, it was not enough time to cause cancer, but only God know what I may have touched and messed with in my earlier years. As a kid, we were all totally ignorant of what poisons we were dealing with in the 70's. I remember taking apart carbon zinc batteries and using the carbon rods with a train transformer to make carbon arc lights- burning them inside the house. And the stories go on... Of course, there may be no relationship and I don't mean to scare anyone away from tackling a job like this, but being careful is a good idea.


Thanks, just removing the cadmium oxides and leaving it at that might be an option... my first full off chassis restoration projects going back at least 20-30 years ago was an eico hf-81 amplifier, the chassis was so corroded it actually had rust in spots though the plating, the plating was completely oxidized and gone in many areas. I steel wolled and wire burshed the crap out of that thing, and never sealed it or painted it. and it's still fine today. but, its never been in a damp environment. I think I might have polished it so it probably got a coat of wax on it at best.

I'm guessing this tube tester was stored in someone basement in recent history, just judging from the moldy smell of this tube testers case, which is not something I foresee happening going forward.


Last edited by innkeeper on Nov Fri 30, 2018 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 6:52 pm 
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what about conformal coating for sealing.. is that overkill or problematic?


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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 7:01 pm 
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innkeeper wrote:
what about conformal coating for sealing.. is that overkill or problematic?
You can, stuff has a UV dye so you can see what was missed. The solvents for cleanup are nasty. Quality conformal coating and the cleanup solvent are $$$, Miller Stephenson? On the same path, military MFP, now there is nasty stuff, only way to get that off is a blow torch, I have seen military gear, cadmium plated parts, give way, flaking the MFP with it, yech...

White shellac and its done, I see it in an 85 Y.O Radiola, how long does it have to last?

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 7:45 pm 
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I recently did some searching online about cadmium corrosion. I can't find the link now but someone was asking about corrosion on military connectors. Seems like the plywood boxes contributed to the problem. It is from the fumes coming from the glue. Enclosures made from particle board would also cause this because of the glue. The glue might emit formaldehyde, so some of the corrosion maybe a cadmium-formaldehyde compound.
I know someone that works on TVs a lot, he uses CLR (Calcium, Lime and Rust remover) to clean the chassis. CLR contains several acids. This may completely remove the corrosion and the cadmium metal. I believe he rinses the chassis thoroughly afterwards. I'm not sure this is the best way to handle the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 7:54 pm 
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glue_ru wrote:
one thing I've seen is that Cadmium Oxide is brown in color.

Ones showing white powdery look:
Cadmium Carbonate
Cadmium Nitrate
Cadmium Phosphate
Cadmium Hydroxide
Cadmium Chloride

Would be good to know exactly what the stuff is.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Cadmium ... 86&bih=815


Add Cadmium Sulfide to your list of compounds - that's the green stuff on chassis.........

(Beat into our heads in Corrosion Classes in the Navy) ( We had Corrosion Control training ( 1 Week) about every 3 years, usually upon a new assignment, or in a training track to teach a new skill.....). Us Electronics types got even more training, centered around the NA16-1-540 "Bible" for Avionics Corrosion Control.

Cadmium is ever-present in electronics and presents a hazard only when inhaled (dust, particulates, or vapors) or ingested. Merely touching or handling the metal or it's compounds presents no hazard if standard hygiene is followed.

Cadmium Oxide is usually present when >200 degree temperatures and Cadmium or Cadmium vapor are present.

If cadmium is present as a plating, and Cadmium Chloride(a white powder, the byproduct of heat and non-alkaline moisture) is present, merely wipe off any loose corrosion products and dust with a damp cloth, using either isopropyl alcohol or deionized water to dampen the cloth. A HEPA vacuum is a lesser-preferred alternate. Seal the cloth in a polyethylene bag and treat the cloth as Hazmat, and furthermore, do not let it come into contact with any strong alkali or alkaline solutions (like bleach, sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide.).

Cadmium Sulfide is the green stuff - a reaction of the Cadmium plating with sulfurous outgassing of polymers and their colorants - from wires (most common), seals, labels, packing materials and even knobs. Like Cadmium Chloride, wipe off any loose product, but leave the cadmium layer undisturbed (no polishing or buffing) to protect the underlying metal, usually either steel or nickel steel. Green is generally good. Note that nickel-steel plated with cadmium is more likely to have the green corrosion upon it, as the natural oxidation of nickel is green in color - slight pitting of the underlying metal is usually the source.

Mind you, most chromate coatings and even some lacquers are either naturally green or will discolor to a greenish or hazy white appearance. I've seen folks go absolutely bat crazy with abatement, only to find they've removed a protective coating and now have to send it to a depot for either replating or resurfacing.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 10:46 pm 
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I actually remember that mercury blob game. It was a maze

And Nu I would NOT break mercury relay tubes today. I’d collect them lol

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 10:56 pm 
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I use ammonia diluted with water. Itsems to dissolve the white powder completely.

Dennis


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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Thu 29, 2018 11:15 pm 
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Findm-Keepm ...Thanks, that's an awesome post!!!!

Good to get the benefit of the military's experience, our tax dollars at work, especially the navy where they deal with corrosion and cadmium all the time along and with longer-term support of bad fixes so knowing what not to do also.
so this is my ah ha moment...

so I had read in more than one place that the yellowish green was cadmium sulfide and the white cadmium chloride, but know I know exactly why its known and how it came to get there.

how to deal with it also makes complete sense to me. it might not look pretty when it's done but functionally it will still have the protection and at the same time get rid of the stuff that might become airborne or loose..also, the fact that cadmium chloride forms with heat and non alkaline moisture explain why I see someone of it on the power resistors, a heat source where it might condense.

You have convinced me that the appropriate course of action for me for this particular project is to just clean it off with isopropyl alcohol or deionized water and a cloth and leave it as is and not to coat it over with something.

to your point, there are things that cause this, obviously moisture heat, and outgassing, so anything that can be done to minimize that going forward will help in keeping it from continuing. it's an old plywood box, and I would assume most of the outgassing is done with. ( Notimetolooz referenced an article i've read to on the topic... i think this is it https://www.libertypackaging.com/raytheon-case-study )

admittedly, his probably wouldn't be my course of action if this was some visible component, but being behind a panel, it doesn't have to look pretty, just last forever :P

(edit for typos)


Last edited by innkeeper on Nov Fri 30, 2018 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 12:14 am 
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hmm just one thought comes to mind, how do I know there's still plating protecting it after I wipe it off. I thought just a simple test with a drop of some salt water in a spot might be an effective test, if it rusts, then I know its no longer protected.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 12:20 am 
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innkeeper wrote:
hmm just one thought comes to mind, how do I know there's still plating protecting it after I wipe it off. I thought just a simple test with a drop of some salt water in a spot might be an effective test, if it rusts, then I know its no longer protected.

I would not sweat it. I can tell you from experience wiping down these with Windex 15 or more years ago that there is no rust showing on any of the several chassis that I have pulled recently. It is going to take a lot more than a wiping to get that plating off.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 1:28 am 
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Cad plating is still used and still done for commercial and military use; the alternative is zinc or zinc-tin plating and those have problems with work hardening that causes them to crack and fail in high stress applications. Cadmium plated items are just not as likely to turn up at the local home center as they might have been many years ago because it is no longer welcome in residential waste streams anywhere.

In cleaning equipment up, all you really want to do is remove the cadmium "bloom" (white, yellow, or green powdery residue) if it exists. Several good ways of doing this have already been mentioned; a wet sponge or towel will do the trick. None of the compounds of cadmium are safe to inhale or ingest. Fortunately these materials are not absorbed through the skin so handling them is generally not a problem as long as you wash them off before eating or smoking. As for plating that is still in good condition, best course of action is to leave it alone as it is still protecting the metal underneath. I avoid sanding or grinding cadmium plated metals, and I do not allow them to get heated up excessively.

It might be mentioned that cadmium plated chassis hardware that is still in good condition is worth saving if you come across it. It's not easy to find cadmium plated screws and nuts on the hobbyist/amateur level any more, and stainless steel or bright zinc plated hardware simply doesn't look right on a vintage chassis.

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Nov Fri 30, 2018 2:32 am 
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innkeeper, that is the webpage I was referring to!

Another reason that you will not be seeing as much cadmium plating is RoHS.
(You see RoHS referred to a lot when you look for components on places like Mouser and Digikey.)
Cadmium is one of the substances essentially banned for sale in the EU. Manufacturer seldom will want to make both RoHS and non-RoHS products.
http://www.rohsguide.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Dec Sat 01, 2018 6:04 am 
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anyone know if you can plate over cadmium, or, if you're going to replace, do you have to strip off the existing plating?

I'm assuming you can, I've read about cadmium plating over zinc. not that id do it in this case. but maybe on a chassis or parts if it got down to bare metal in spots. just exploring other ideas in this area. The thinking is if the total stripping of the cadmium could be avoided if you are restoring something and want to make it look nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Dec Sun 02, 2018 7:19 pm 
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I'm working on a stereo from the mid 60's that has cadmium plated sections of the chassis. I disassembled some of it and then scraped off as much of the powder as I could. I decided to give CLR a try, I diluted it about 4 or 5 to 1, and dunked in some brackets, using an old toothbrush for the tight spots. It removed the corrosion within a minute or two. I thoroughly rinsed and then dried the pieces. The last piece was a push button station selector, lots of parts to it. I decided to take pictures. I didn't get the lighting the same for the after picture. I'll have to wait and see what it looks like a decade from now.
Before.
Attachment:
MechanBeforeE1.jpg
MechanBeforeE1.jpg [ 151.78 KiB | Viewed 2147 times ]


After.
Attachment:
MechanAfterE1.jpg
MechanAfterE1.jpg [ 167.85 KiB | Viewed 2147 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Cadmium Oxide Hazard: Hickok / Western Electric tube tes
PostPosted: Dec Sun 02, 2018 10:19 pm 
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looks really good

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