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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Sat 05, 2020 1:32 am 
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ZombieElvis wrote:

My probe doesn't have coax on the end. I'm using an SMA connector on the probe along with a BNC adapter. That way I can just use a plain BNC cable. It's reading 12 Mohms center to shield at the SMA connector.

I got BNC on my SG, so it's plugged straight in to my Rigol scope with a BNC cable via a tee and 50 ohm terminator. I got that input set on 1X.

Are you sure you used a 12K resistor and not a 12Megohm when you built that probe?
12K, 12M seems like quite a coincidence. Did you ohm out the diode to see if it is OK?

Seems like you might be missing some basic understanding about a few things.
The input impedance of a typical oscilloscope is 1Megohm with a small capacitance (in the neighborhood of 20-40pf) in parallel. Using a 10X probe the impedance is 10Meg and something like 10pf. The 10X probe knocks the signal size down by a factor of ten of course.
Scopes with numerical readouts not withstanding, you should be able to read the voltage off the waveform by using the graticule.
Most service grade signal generators don't have 50 ohm output impedance and don't really need to be terminated with 50 ohms unless you want to decrease the signal size.

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Sat 05, 2020 1:42 am 
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ZombieElvis wrote:


My probe doesn't have coax on the end. I'm using an SMA connector on the probe along with a BNC adapter. That way I can just use a plain BNC cable. It's reading 12 Mohms center to shield at the SMA connector.

I got BNC on my SG, so it's plugged straight in to my Rigol scope with a BNC cable via a tee and 50 ohm terminator. I got that input set on 1X.

A BNC cable IS a coax cable. Any wire that has a outer conductor surrounding it and insulated from the center wire is a coax cable.

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Sat 05, 2020 1:54 am 
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Some semantics here. Coaxial means sharing an axis. Ordinary shielded wire does not control the axis such that they are the same for the shield and center conductors. Coaxial cable presumably has a common axis for both and as such, has a controlled characteristic impedance.


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Sat 05, 2020 7:49 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona
This is my sweep setup, The digital scope is in DC mode and 1 volt per division for input gain.

I like the Sencore SM152 sweep generator. It will sweep from 10 MHz to 400 MHz by changing the dial knob.
You can vary the sweep width from zero to about 10 MHz This was made to work with a simple scope. The digital scope is a big pain to get triggered and set but once I get it to work I save the setup.

As you can see the SM152 has the same markers for sweeping a color TV set as the B&K415. I am feeding in the RCA marker generator the SM152 is sitting on. It is set to output a continuous 25 MHz sine wave in this picture.

The output probe is clipped directly to the diode input of the SM152, you see the probes draped over the top.

The sweep width is set for about 7 MHz and the big pip on the flat pedestal is the 25MHz marker. I have a split from the marker generator going to my frequency counter so i can know with accuracy what the exact frequency of the marker is.

The pedestal is a flat DC voltage line the left end is the low frequency end of the sweep and the right end is the high end. If I change the marker frequency it will cause the pip to move up or down the trace. As there is no TV IF in the path, I get a flat line so I can see what I am sending into the TV under test.

If I was going to align a color set I would select the internal markers.

I am guessing you are going to use the 415 for color TV's I only mess with early B&W sets which have the IF frequencies around 21 MHz

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Sun 06, 2020 9:29 pm 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
Notimetolooz wrote:
Seems like you might be missing some basic understanding about a few things..


Bingo! What was your first clue? :lol: Seriously, I'm just starting out with this stuff and would greatly appreciate your help and patience. That being said, I'm sure that there isn't a short to ground in the cable as I've used 3 different cables now from 3 different manufacturers.

I just checked. It is indeed a 12 Kohm resistor, not a 12 meg. What did you mean by "ohm out the diode"? Is that different than a DMM diode test? In circuit, it measures 12 Mohm one way and 600 Kohm the other.

My nice scope is a Rigol DS1054Z. According to its front panel, it is indeed 1Mohm with 13pF.

My SG is a B&K E-200D. From the factory, it did have a 50 ohm output cable, but I swapped that port over to a BNC just to have the same ports on all my equipment. Now I just use a BNC tee with a 50 ohm BNC terminator and BNC croc clips.


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Sun 06, 2020 9:49 pm 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
K7MCG wrote:
Looking closely at the photo of the bottom side of your probe breadboard, it looks like the center conductor of the coax connector is not soldered..... suggest you check with a good magnifier.
-Chuck


I checked. It's soldered. I reflowed it just the make sure too.


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Mon 07, 2020 5:05 am 
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Joined: May Thu 14, 2015 4:15 pm
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Location: Dallas, TX
OK, I guess it was a coincidence then. When I said ohm-out I meant checking it with an ohmmeter. A diode will read much lower resistance in one direction and a high resistance in the other. The exact resistance depends on the current going through it as the meter measures it. I don't know exactly how that meter measures diodes in that mode, some put a 1ma current through and scale the value to also indicate the diode voltage drop.

I think that when a short was suggested somewhere the factory assembled cable wasn't the location of the short.
The B&K E-200D does have a 50 output impedance (primarily because it has a decent attenuator), so a 50 ohm cable is a good thing to use. The original output connector was a microphone type, I think, and really wasn't a good 50 ohm connector, so changing it was a good idea. By the way, SMA connectors are also 50 ohm. Some BNC connectors are actually 75 ohm meant for TV and video signals, but they aren't that much different, so unless the use is very critical either one would do.

A good set-up to check out the detector probe you made is to have a 50 ohm coax come from the E-200D output and be terminated with a 50 ohm load on the other end of the cable, also have a T connected at the termination.
Set the generator output to get the maximum output. The coax from your probe output will not be carrying RF, so it shouldn't be terminated. The coax from your probe output should be connected to the scope input. Some scopes can switch there input impedance to 50 ohms, but you want high impedance (1 Meg). Select DC coupling on the scope. Touch the probe tip to the center conductor on the T, also have the probe ground lead connected to the outer shield. A un-modulated RF signal should show as a DC level on the scope. That's why a voltmeter could also be used.

Here is a good video on coax (transmission line) impedance. Pay attention near the end when he changes the frequency, that is similar to what happens when a sweep generator is used, and why the impedance of the set-up is important. He has a lot of good videos. You can't learn everything from this forum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_jxh0Qe_FY

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Tue 08, 2020 5:04 am 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
Notimetolooz wrote:
A good set-up to check out the detector probe you made is to have a 50 ohm coax come from the E-200D output and be terminated with a 50 ohm load on the other end of the cable, also have a T connected at the termination.
Set the generator output to get the maximum output. The coax from your probe output will not be carrying RF, so it shouldn't be terminated. The coax from your probe output should be connected to the scope input. Some scopes can switch there input impedance to 50 ohms, but you want high impedance (1 Meg). Select DC coupling on the scope. Touch the probe tip to the center conductor on the T, also have the probe ground lead connected to the outer shield. A un-modulated RF signal should show as a DC level on the scope. That's why a voltmeter could also be used.

Here is a good video on coax (transmission line) impedance. Pay attention near the end when he changes the frequency, that is similar to what happens when a sweep generator is used, and why the impedance of the set-up is important. He has a lot of good videos. You can't learn everything from this forum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_jxh0Qe_FY


MAX output, no attenuation??? Okay, whatever you say, boss.... Here's max amplitude and modulation. That's 20.4 Vpp. Still, I set things up like you wanted. I did put a pair of croc clips on that tee instead of touching the probe directly to the center pin, just to have another hand free.

Here, let me capture my scope output and post it. Yellow is what the SG is outputting at max everything, blue is what the probe is receiving.

Hey, my DMM isn't saying zero volts anymore! Now it says -1.322 volts DC. However, the scope says 1.76 V RMS.

So is my probe working properly? Which voltage value should I trust?

Thanks for that video. I'll watch it tonight. I was actually building the probe from his video 161 before Tim posted the actual schematic of B&K's one last page.


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Tue 08, 2020 5:14 am 
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Joined: Jan Tue 10, 2012 8:39 am
Posts: 2815
You are getting pretty much what to expect. Measuring anything other than a sine wave is suspect. You have frequency to consider as well as impedance. The generator is clipping and you have to know which polarity the probe is measuring. You need to know its diagram so you can figure out what its output means. Is it measuring the positive or negative peak? What is the load? I seriously doubt that the generator source impedance is 50 Ohms.

Since the wave is clipped, it has components at many frequencies, mostly harmonics of the fundamental. Most detector probes are peak detectors and many cause loading of the source. In addition, the little burbles when the wave approaches the baseline, as well as the widening of the trace at the peak, implies some modulation, either intentional or not.

In other words, what you have is an exercise worthy of inclusion as a problem in an engineering textbook.


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Tue 08, 2020 6:04 am 
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Joined: May Thu 14, 2015 4:15 pm
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Location: Dallas, TX
ZombieElvis wrote:
Notimetolooz wrote:
A good set-up to check out the detector probe you made is to have a 50 ohm coax come from the E-200D output and be terminated with a 50 ohm load on the other end of the cable, also have a T connected at the termination.
Set the generator output to get the maximum output. The coax from your probe output will not be carrying RF, so it shouldn't be terminated. The coax from your probe output should be connected to the scope input. Some scopes can switch there input impedance to 50 ohms, but you want high impedance (1 Meg). Select DC coupling on the scope. Touch the probe tip to the center conductor on the T, also have the probe ground lead connected to the outer shield. A un-modulated RF signal should show as a DC level on the scope. That's why a voltmeter could also be used.

Here is a good video on coax (transmission line) impedance. Pay attention near the end when he changes the frequency, that is similar to what happens when a sweep generator is used, and why the impedance of the set-up is important. He has a lot of good videos. You can't learn everything from this forum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_jxh0Qe_FY


MAX output, no attenuation??? Okay, whatever you say, boss.... Here's max amplitude and modulation. That's 20.4 Vpp. Still, I set things up like you wanted. I did put a pair of croc clips on that tee instead of touching the probe directly to the center pin, just to have another hand free.

Here, let me capture my scope output and post it. Yellow is what the SG is outputting at max everything, blue is what the probe is receiving.

Hey, my DMM isn't saying zero volts anymore! Now it says -1.322 volts DC. However, the scope says 1.76 V RMS.

So is my probe working properly? Which voltage value should I trust?

Thanks for that video. I'll watch it tonight. I was actually building the probe from his video 161 before Tim posted the actual schematic of B&K's one last page.

The reason I suggested max output is because it seemed you weren't getting anything out of the probe.
That generator has an output attenuator based on 50 ohms.
100KHz is barely RF, why not try something more like 1MHz or more.
If you watched video 161 to build a probe you might have noticed he said the output of the probe is approximate.
If you want to read the RF level you need to have the modulation off. Maybe you are trying to do too many things at once. Do basic things first then get more complicated later. See if the probe can detect a steady RF level then see how it does with a modulated RF signal.
It could be that because the RF frequency is so low that that generator has a pretty bad output wave shape. Then again maybe that generator has a problem. The attenuator in the generator could not change the wave shape. Try
tuning down the variable output control.
So if I read the scope right, it says the RF is 19.2Vpp, that would mean the peak is about half that or 9V or so.
Your probe has one diode so it's output is tracking the peak, not peak-to-peak. Depending on which way it is in the probe circuit it could be the positive peak or the negative peak. Normally that would be the same if your RF was symmetrical, it doesn't look like it is symmetrical though.

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Tue 08, 2020 6:31 am 
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Joined: May Thu 14, 2015 4:15 pm
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Location: Dallas, TX
To help clarify things a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa7Vt78BAFk
The only thing he doesn't come right out and say is that a peak-to-peak voltage is measued from the positive peak to the negative peak, but that is kind of obvious.

Your scope has a computer inside that does the math for you. It also can calculate the RMS values of waveshpes that are not good sinewaves. Most of the time however you will want to have sinewaves in radio circuits so the RMS value of a waveshape like the one you have on your scope isn't very useful.
I wouldn't have recommended that scope for you, you won't learn the math if it does it for you. Because it has so many bells and whistles it is actually more difficult to learn to use well than a simpler scope.

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Wed 09, 2020 1:17 am 
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Joined: Jul Mon 01, 2019 4:42 pm
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Location: St. Louis, MO
bob91343 wrote:
I seriously doubt that the generator source impedance is 50 Ohms.


Attachment:
50 ohms.jpg
50 ohms.jpg [ 83.69 KiB | Viewed 725 times ]


Notimetolooz wrote:
The reason I suggested max output is because it seemed you weren't getting anything out of the probe.
That generator has an output attenuator based on 50 ohms.
100KHz is barely RF, why not try something more like 1MHz or more.
If you watched video 161 to build a probe you might have noticed he said the output of the probe is approximate.
If you want to read the RF level you need to have the modulation off. Maybe you are trying to do too many things at once. Do basic things first then get more complicated later. See if the probe can detect a steady RF level then see how it does with a modulated RF signal.
It could be that because the RF frequency is so low that that generator has a pretty bad output wave shape. Then again maybe that generator has a problem. The attenuator in the generator could not change the wave shape. Try
tuning down the variable output control.
So if I read the scope right, it says the RF is 19.2Vpp, that would mean the peak is about half that or 9V or so.
Your probe has one diode so it's output is tracking the peak, not peak-to-peak. Depending on which way it is in the probe circuit it could be the positive peak or the negative peak. Normally that would be the same if your RF was symmetrical, it doesn't look like it is symmetrical though.



I suppose I should mention that the above picture is the output without the 50 ohm terminator. The output looks so bad because the attenuation knob is at max. It clips if that knob is past 80% or so.

Here's that 1 MHz you wanted. This one is WITH the 50 ohm terminator on, attenuator turned down to prevent clipping, no modulation. I turned on channel 2 Vpp also.
Attachment:
2nd output.png
2nd output.png [ 67.96 KiB | Viewed 725 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Wed 09, 2020 5:50 am 
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Well at least you know more about your generator now.
The maximum output is specified to be 126,000 uV, that is the same as 126 mV or 0.126 V. Those are probably RMS values.
So if the RF is 900mV peak-to-peak which is about 450 mV peak, since the sinewave isn't symmetrical it will be a little off. This probe would respond to the peak so the probe output should be about equal to the peak, but it will be DC.

That channel 2 is the probe output right?
It looks noisy. That doesn't seem right, you are using a coax cable (shielded) on that. Maybe the probe circuit needs to be shielded. Another source of noise pick up may be the clip lead wire you may be using.
You need to measure the DC level of the probe output with the scope, not the peak-to-peak.

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Wed 09, 2020 10:07 pm 
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My scope doesn't do VDC, just Vrms. I don't know about that shielding. I built the probe at the top of the second page. From the pictures, the only shielding that one had was the plastic and a piece of cardboard.

Let me try it again with my fattest BNC cable and I'll try touching the probe directly to the tee tip.


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Thu 10, 2020 12:33 am 
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ZombieElvis wrote:
My scope doesn't do VDC, just Vrms.


! Are you sure about that?
That would be a serious deficiency. It may not have a readout for DC but you should be able to read the value off the screen.

I was wondering what kind of hook-up you are using so that you can look at the generator output with the scope and use the probe at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Thu 10, 2020 12:39 am 
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I don't know of any scope that does rms, other than some fancy digital computational one.


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Thu 10, 2020 1:26 am 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
Notimetolooz wrote:
ZombieElvis wrote:
My scope doesn't do VDC, just Vrms.


! Are you sure about that?
That would be a serious deficiency. It may not have a readout for DC but you should be able to read the value off the screen.

I was wondering what kind of hook-up you are using so that you can look at the generator output with the scope and use the probe at the same time.


Pretty sure. If it's buried in a menu somewhere, I can't find it. I even searched for "DC" in the PDF manual. Aside from channel coupling and trigger coupling, it's only mentioned in a SG function for a fancier model than my DS1054Z.

I'm just using a pair of tees, enough to get 3 outputs from my SG: one for the 50 ohm terminator, one direct to my scope and the last for probe testing. I removed the croc clips too. This is the probe directly touched to the BNC pin.

Boy, I feel stupid. I realized that I hadn't tried my probe with all my cables after I took it apart and resoldered everything. I was just using my Amazon cheapy cheap BNC 5-pack cables before. Here's my thickest, fattest BNC cable. MUCH cleaner! Does this look right?

bob91343 wrote:
I don't know of any scope that does rms, other than some fancy digital computational one.


It's there on the screen. Not bad for a $375-ish scope. Here, I'll turn on the fancy stats:


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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Thu 10, 2020 4:23 am 
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bob91343 wrote:
I don't know of any scope that does rms, other than some fancy digital computational one.

Bob, that's what he's got.
In my opinion, his first scope should have been an analog scope. So many options, menus and math functions that the basic stuff gets lost.
He is trying to learn how to fly sitting in a F15 instead of a single engine Cessna.

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Thu 10, 2020 5:26 am 
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I tried to find a pdf manual online but I didn't come up with one.
I also looked at many videos that explained reading a DC level on a scope and it was very tough to find a good one,
hardly any explained it well if at all when using a digital scope. It is so basic that it is taken for granted everyone knows.
The thing is, you need to figure it out by counting the grid (graticule) lines and knowing how many volts per line space, like reading a ruler. That's the way people measured things on a scope before they got computerized scopes.
Here is a video that kind of shows it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VEg6L2QG5o
However, looking at your scope screen I think I figured out what might work for you. You should learn to read the graticule though.
I think the markers on the left of the screen that identify the traces are at the zero level for that trace. When you have AC coupling on that trace the zero level is at the middle level of a symmetrical sinewave. If you have the trace on DC couple then the zero level is ground level. So if you have DC coupling on a trace you can find the DC level by measuring the distance (graticule) from the identifying marker to the trace and multiplying by the volts per division for that trace.
Incidentally, the red marker on the right of the screen, marked with a T, is the trigger level.
I also think I figured out a lazy way for you to find the approximate DC level. You have to use DC coupling,
I think the Vmax reading will give you that value if the voltage is positive and the Vmin reading will give you the value if the voltage is negative.

The way you split up the signal generator output is OK for low frequencies, but it is wrong when it comes to RF.
Each one of those coax cables (at RF) that you have branching out is a transmission line and therefore
should be terminated correctly. However if you did that it would be too much load on the generator and also the generator wouldn't see a 50 ohm load. In other words, you can't branch coax like that if the signal is at RF.
The detector probe isn't a 50 ohm load, a 10X scope probe isn't 50 ohm load, so you don't want to have a coax feeding them. You could have a 50 ohm coax going between the generator and 50 ohm termination, but the detector probe and the 10X scope probe should be at the 50 ohm termination. That is why I recommended you use a T at the 50 ohm termination (an inch or so won't be a problem). Welcome to RF, you can't hook things up like you can with DC or audio circuits. You could also use two lengths of coax with a T between them, attach that T directly to the scope BNC for that channel. The other end of one coax is connected to the generator. The other coax's end would go to another T with the 50 ohm termination and the detector probe.
I think most of the reason for the better trace is you not using the clip lead. The clip lead was acting like an antenna. Maybe the coax is better shielded.
You shouldn't be seeing much AC on the detector probe output, maybe it is ripple.

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 Post subject: Re: B&K 415 Sweep/Marker Generator
PostPosted: Dec Thu 10, 2020 5:40 am 
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Here is another good video about RMS and peak voltage measurement.
The math is not always exactly the same if the sinewave is distorted as in the case many times with service grade signal generators, etc. I mean, if the sinewave is distorted the conversion factor isn't exactly 0.707.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue0wtlrmCJE

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