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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 30, 2013 4:56 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 431
Location: Cold Spring Kentucky USA
He was experimenting with them, not selling them, I have some of his experimental notes. Ive been very lucky to be associated with the Ogden family for years. I also believe that 1924 was the year, and I am trying to find an article from radio Broadcast that introduced some testing that claimed to be the first, the photo showed it being tested on a ware battery set.

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"55 KRC" - Cincinnati's WKRC (Kodel Radio Corporation)


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 30, 2013 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 25381
Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
I see an article on building a B supply using an Amrad S tube (and Amrad Mershon electrolytics) in September,
and one that uses a diode-connected triode in December. I'll keep looking.

Here's the setup with the Ware receiver:
Attachment:
Radio Broadcast Aug1924.jpg
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There's an earlier article on using a vibrating-reed charger (not, apparently, a Kodel however) to charge a B battery. It couldn't run a radio directly.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Mon 30, 2013 9:59 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 431
Location: Cold Spring Kentucky USA
this is the article Im talking about - thats a ware receiver, I have one, dont recall the model but that receiver has a nice volt meter on it. I bought one at Lansing 10 years or so ago for 60 bucks. As I recall its a neutrodyne. Thanks Alan. Also here are photos of my wls charger, I went down to the barn today, I forgot, its in the midst of a restoration, so its in pieces. Then there is a photo of my restored early homcharger, this one has no flip lid or bail to carry it with. It is an early production model, the clips are original and before Kodels patent on the later production clips.


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Jon Leming (Erin)

"55 KRC" - Cincinnati's WKRC (Kodel Radio Corporation)
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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Dec Tue 31, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
"Thanks" Alan, for uploading the photo of Dulibilier's advertisement of its Super-Ducon, which "actually" shows its model and its selling price, that was found in the month of December 1924. As I have previously stated, that I checked thru all of the 1924 issues of "Radio In The Home" and found no Super-Ducon advertisements, even though Dubilier had large monthly advertisements of its other products. I also checked thru all of the 1924 issues of "Radio News" and also found no Super-Ducon advertisements, even though Dubilier again had large monthly advertisements of its other products. But, I did finally find a Super-Ducon advertisement, in the 1925 January issue of "Radio News", which is also the same ad that you show from 1924 December issue of "The Wireless Age".

Image

Interestedly, I also found a Boston Daily Globe November 30, 1924 newspaper article on the Super-Ducon. And in this article, it mentions using a "special rectifier tube". And it also states, "Two V-shaped filaments on either side of the rectangular plate are used". This is the first article that I have found, which describes the new Westinghouse UV-196 dual-filament full-wave rectifier tube, that Dubilier would be using for its final production design. Prior to this article, Dubilier had first mentioned using the "Fleming valves" for its rectification process, which was stated in the July 1924 issue of "The Wireless Age", that I had previously uploaded onto the 1st page of this thread.

Image

Finally, even though Alan had uploaded a December 1924 advertisement, which shows its "actual" model and its pricing, I do not think that Dubilier had actually produced or sold any Super-Ducon models, until sometime in early 1925. And the reason, is that Dubilier was waiting for Westinghouse to start manufacturing the UV-196 rectifier tube, which it would be using for its Super-Ducon. And supposedly the UV-196 dual filament full-wave rectifier tube was developed by Westinghouse sometime in 1925 and sold thru RCA.


Does anyone have any information on "exactly" when Westinghouse and RCA had started to manufacture and sell its UV-196 rectifier tube??

Image

Thanks again Alan for all your wonderful information and contributions-Rick


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Jan Sun 05, 2014 10:54 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 327
Location: Lethbridge, AB CA
Rick Hirsh wrote:
"Thanks" Alan, for uploading the photo of Dulibilier's advertisement of its Super-Ducon, which "actually" shows its model and its selling price, that was found in the month of December 1924. As I have previously stated, that I checked thru all of the 1924 issues of "Radio In The Home" and found no Super-Ducon advertisements, even though Dubilier had large monthly advertisements of its other products. I also checked thru all of the 1924 issues of "Radio News" and also found no Super-Ducon advertisements, even though Dubilier again had large monthly advertisements of its other products. But, I did finally find a Super-Ducon advertisement, in the 1925 January issue of "Radio News", which is also the same ad that you show from 1924 December issue of "The Wireless Age".

Image

Interestedly, I also found a Boston Daily Globe November 30, 1924 newspaper article on the Super-Ducon. And in this article, it mentions using a "special rectifier tube". And it also states, "Two V-shaped filaments on either side of the rectangular plate are used". This is the first article that I have found, which describes the new Westinghouse UV-196 dual-filament full-wave rectifier tube, that Dubilier would be using for its final production design. Prior to this article, Dubilier had first mentioned using the "Fleming valves" for its rectification process, which was stated in the July 1924 issue of "The Wireless Age", that I had previously uploaded onto the 1st page of this thread.

Image

Finally, even though Alan had uploaded a December 1924 advertisement, which shows its "actual" model and its pricing, I do not think that Dubilier had actually produced or sold any Super-Ducon models, until sometime in early 1925. And the reason, is that Dubilier was waiting for Westinghouse to start manufacturing the UV-196 rectifier tube, which it would be using for its Super-Ducon. And supposedly the UV-196 dual filament full-wave rectifier tube was developed by Westinghouse sometime in 1925 and sold thru RCA.


Does anyone have any information on "exactly" when Westinghouse and RCA had started to manufacture and sell its UV-196 rectifier tube??

Image

Thanks again Alan for all your wonderful information and contributions-Rick

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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Jan Mon 06, 2014 2:11 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 25381
Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
I don't see any comment in that post.

Quote:
I did finally find a Super-Ducon advertisement, in the 1925 January issue of "Radio News", which is also the same ad that you show from 1924 December issue of "The Wireless Age".
Radio News appeared on the 10th of the preceding month.

Sort of a circular argument, but I date the UV196 from when it was first advertised, namely the end of 1924. There was a story on it in (probably) the Tube Collector but I don't have it right at hand.
Attachment:
UV196.jpg
UV196.jpg [ 24.84 KiB | Viewed 4863 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Jan Mon 06, 2014 3:17 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
Hi Alan,

"Thanks" for uploading your photo of the RCA UV-196 rectifier tube.

1) Based on the information that you had already given ..., What month (November or December) in 1924, do you think that Dubilier had first started to "actually" produce and sell its Super-Ducon "B" battery eliminators ?

2) And do you still think that Dubilier, was the very "first" company to produce and sell "B" battery eliminators ?


Thanks Rick


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Jan Mon 06, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 25381
Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
That NYC shop claimed to have them for sale in November. It would be very odd for a shop to advertise something they didn't have in stock, or were sure they could get in time (but the ad would be out the next week, for the Saturday radio section where this ad was).

So based on contemporary evidence, Dubilier wins hands down. I haven't seen any indication that anybody else offered a B eliminator within a year of that.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Jan Wed 08, 2014 4:50 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
"Thanks" again Alan, for all your "invaluable" information that you have provided, and for the late 1924 Nov/Dec sales ads of the Dubilier Super-Ducon "B" battery eliminators.

Another 1920's company to produce "B" battery eliminators ... , was the Stewart Storage Battery Company, which originated in 1921 (Marshfield Wisc.) and produced radio and automobile storage batteries. After only a couple of years, the company went bankrupt. Ed Stewart had went into the radio and automotive battery business again, starting around 1926 (Chicago IL.), and was re-named the "Stewart Battery Co.". And from 1926-28, they had produced "B" battery eliminators, before going bankrupt again. I have also attached a photo of this Stewart "B" battery eliminator.

Finally, I have never seen an "actual example" of this Stewart "B" battery eliminator device, and I was wondering if anyone happens to have this particular unit ??

Also, does anyone have any other information, brochures or advertisements on the Stewart "B" battery eliminators ??


Image


....... Image


Thanks Rick


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Jan Fri 31, 2014 9:48 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1450
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
I know its several weeks late, but I finally dug out my Timmond B-Liminator tube box. I have a tube from a bad Timmons unit (Thanks Steve aka azenithnut), and got the box separately. It is corrigated cardboard woth paste-on llabels.

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Jim Cross


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Jan Fri 31, 2014 11:20 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1680
Location: Townsend, Ma.
The Radio Broadcast of March 1925 has an article specifically about battery eliminators.
I noticed it when I was preparing to put it on Ebay starting 2/2/14.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Sat 01, 2014 4:54 am 
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Joined: Feb Tue 10, 2009 3:16 pm
Posts: 917
Location: zipcode 46235
Erin wrote:
this is the article Im talking about - thats a ware receiver, I have one, dont recall the model but that receiver has a nice volt meter on it. I bought one at Lansing 10 years or so ago for 60 bucks. As I recall its a neutrodyne. Thanks Alan. Also here are photos of my wls charger, I went down to the barn today, I forgot, its in the midst of a restoration, so its in pieces. Then there is a photo of my restored early homcharger, this one has no flip lid or bail to carry it with. It is an early production model, the clips are original and before Kodels patent on the later production clips.



DId you do a display at one of the Indiana Historical Radio Society meetings some years back? If so, I remember your collection very well. Glad to see someone is preserving these items.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Sat 01, 2014 5:08 am 
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Joined: Apr Tue 19, 2011 6:24 am
Posts: 494
Location: Wayne, NJ 07470
Leigh wrote: "B batteries were not rechargeable. That was the whole reason for B Battery Eliminators."

Some B batteries were, indeed, rechargeable. I have been seeking examples for years. People used them for longer life / greater economy than converntional Leclanche carbon-zinc B-batteries offered, especially as "power tubes" became available for AF output. A zippy new UX-171 pushing a loud speaker at volume could suck dry a carbon cell in a few hours of listening. The lead-acid B-batteries sourced more current and provided better regulation in such applications, but they required regular maintenance, and were dangerous and messy. Ladies didn't like them in their parlors.

Many Tungar type chargers could charge 48-cell wet batteries, in addition to the usual 6V lead-acid A-batteries. Don"Dsturtz" offered a tired one in the Classified Forum for $10 this week; see its label for B-battery charging specs. I wonder if Rick Hirsch has any such B+ batteries for his chargers, or if Alan Douglas might have any examples ?


Popular radio magazines of the mid-'20s (e.g. Radio News) have ads for several brands and model that charged multi-cell B-batteries.
(e.g., The Dec. 1926 issue of Radio News is full of new B-battery eliminators of every sort, but it also carries a nice ad on page 724 from the Service Battery Co. for a "100 Volt Storage Battery" which is "...Easy to recharge." - 50V and 125 V models were also offered. The same issue has an ad for Westinghouse Rectigon chargers which stated they charged both A and B batteries.

The impetus to be rid of messy, leaky wet cell batteries and separate chargers drove the need for B+ supplies. Smith's work and its embodiment by the American Appliance. Corp. commercially produced "The Raytheon" gas tube rectifier that made so many battery eliminator companies prosperous. Eventually the name of the tube was adopted as the name of the company itself. That early intellectual propery associated with a marginally acceptable rectifier eventually led to the huge company which produces some of America's most advanced weaponry.
0Z4s are their final legacy in the world of Antique Radios.

The ~1925 advent of the UV/UX-213 and its 1927 successor, the UX-280, allowed the introduction of integrated "socket-power" AC radio sets, and also certain B-battery eliminators that didn't use the Raytheon approach. Along with Mr. Hirsh, I, too, am delighted by them all.

If you have any leads on a mid-20's rechargeable B-battery for sale/trade , please let me know.


John

OTH


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Sat 01, 2014 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 06, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 743
Location: Kokomo, Indiana 46902
Interesting thread. I just located a Timmons B battery eliminator in a local antique shop. It had no price on it. It is complete without the tube and in good shape other then the paint is flaking off. What would be a good price for such an item in everyone's opinion? I may go back and pick it up to restore.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Sat 01, 2014 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 06, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 743
Location: Kokomo, Indiana 46902
I was in town so I went for it and got the Timmons B-Liminator. A few pics. As it looks with nothing whatsoever done to it. 20 bucks.

Image


Image

Image

If I can get it restored I'll use it with my 1925 Liberty 5 TRF.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Sun 02, 2014 2:38 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 25381
Location: Pocasset, Cape Cod, MA
Take some good photos of the decal, just in case.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Mon 03, 2014 2:15 am 
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Joined: Sep Thu 06, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 743
Location: Kokomo, Indiana 46902
Good idea about the pics of the decal.
Does anyone have or know of a schematic for these? After opening it up the bottom wire wound rheostat was broken (the wire wound arc shaped piece just fell out) and the upper one, which is a different type, seems to be bad as well as the shaft simply unscrews from the body of the potentiometer. I'd like to get it working if possible.


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Wed 05, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 06, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 743
Location: Kokomo, Indiana 46902
Once I have a " good as it can get" photo of the decal, how do you go about getting one reproduced?

Image

Measures at 2 1/4" wide by 1 1/2" high and says ( top to bottom)
Timmons
B-Liminator
Type AC
For alternating current only
60 cycle - 110 volts
Pat. 6-15-23 (I think)
Other Pats Pend
Timmons Radio Products Corp


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Thu 06, 2014 4:23 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
Jim,

"Thanks" for uploading your pics. of the package box for the Timmons B-Liminator Type "R" rectifier tube. I also checked my archives files, and found that I had a picture of this Timmons Radio Products "Special" rectifier tube, which I do not own.

Image


1) Do you also have this particular Timmons Type "R" rectifier tube and if yes, what is its internal construction of this particular tube ?

2) Also, do you have any information on when Westinghouse had actually first started to manufacture the UV-196 dual-filament full-wave rectifier tube and that RCA had marketed it, for the Dublier Super-Ducon "B" battery eliminators ?


..............Image


Thanks Rick


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 Post subject: Re: 1920's "B" Battery Eliminator History
PostPosted: Feb Tue 11, 2014 2:20 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 26, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 96
Alan Douglas wrote:

"Sort of a circular argument, but I date the UV196 from when it was first advertised, namely the end of 1924."


Hi Alan,

I had found some interesting information in my research archive files, that I think you might be interested in. It is an article that was printed in both the New York Times and Wall Street Journal newspapers on Dec 24, 1924. The article describes that Dubilier Radio and Condenser Co. was "negotiating" with Westinghouse Electric and RCA, to manufacture its patented rectifier tube(UV-196) for its "new" Super-Ducon "B" battery eliminators.


Image

Image


Final Thoughts...., even though you had found an late November 1924 advertisement (NY Herald Tribune 11-23-24) with "no pricing" and one ad in the Wireless Age magazine Dec 1924 issue, that actually showed a retail selling price of $47.50, I don't think that Dubilier had ever produced its Super-Ducon's in 1924. And if it did, then it would of had to of been at the very last week of December in 1924, providing that an "agreement" had been reached for Westinghouse and RCA to start producing its (UV-196)Super-Ducon dual filament full-wave rectifier tubes ?


Thanks Rick


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